Diet doctor changes

[VioletViolet]

Is there already a thread on what's going on with Diet Doctor and the satiety index stuff ? If so could someone please link to it? It seems to be changing tack and moving to less keto based advice. What goes on? Have I missed new research ?

 

[Rachox]

Yes, I’ve noticed a change in Diet Dr’s stance. They do still support keto, low carb, high protein etc…
This page may be useful to you, scroll down just passed the experts’ photos and there are links to articles about all their different approaches:

Diet Doctor — Making Low Carb and Keto Simple

How do you start a keto or low-carb diet? We have delicious recipes, amazing meal plans, the best keto videos, and a supportive low-carb community to help dramatically improve your health. Welcome to Diet Doctor, where we make low carb simple.

www.dietdoctor.com

 

[VioletViolet]

I've had a look around the site and I think the main change seems to be to watch the fat amounts and focus on protein. There are mentions of calories which I'm sure is new too. What I cannot grasp is if the research into fat and health has driven this or it's about appealing to a wider audience.

 

[Oldvatr]

If you compare the original Atkins Diet to the one being marketed now, it too went through a similar morph so as to reduce the heat being directed at it from HCP's and nutritionists, and to make it more like LCHF and thus more acceptable to a wider audience. It may also be a way of widening the LC aspect without requiring ketosis to happen (i.e. LCHF) in the same way that Newcastle Diet used [carbs +diet shakes] that kept most people just above the ketosis threshold.

It may also be a move to make it more appealing to vegetarians who will be using higher carb levels.

 

[JimPartie]

Dr. Ted Naiman, MD - Diet Doctor

Dr. Ted Naiman, MD, is part of the Diet Doctor low-carb expert panel.

www.dietdoctor.com

This link may help.

 

[Oldvatr]

I see from the twitter feed he was a seventh day adventist and a vegetarian. But he seems to have moved away from that now, How does that explain the changes to diet doctor?

 

[HSSS]

They began promoting higher protein less fat a while ago based on his PE ratio approach.

 

[JimPartie]

I see from the twitter feed he was a seventh day adventist and a vegetarian. But he seems to have moved away from that now, How does that explain the changes to diet doctor?

Dr ted Naiman is now employed by Diet Dr. Hence change of direction!

 

[Oldvatr]

They began promoting higher protein less fat a while ago based on his PE ratio approach.

Ah yes P:E. I think I am wary of this diet direction. Increasing protein with exercise is coming from the Bodybuilding and the weightlifting section of the population. Protein with exercise does seem to be beneficial in terms of all cause mortality especially if the exercise is aerobic. Bodybuilding on the other hand does not involve aerobic exercise and this activity decreases life expectancy (compared to the general populace). Edit to add note: This cohort does take a load of supplements and growth hormone that may explain this trend

Mortality Rate Higher Among Bodybuilders - Renal and Urology News

Reasons are unclear, but use of testosterone and other performance enhance drugs could be a contributing factor.

www.renalandurologynews.com

So for P:E to benefit us diabetics, it necessitates aerobic exercise otherwise it could be harmful(?) As a sedentary diabetic, I will avoid pushing my protein up too much. I wondered where all these suggestions on the forum for protein shakes was coming from.

 

[Oldvatr]

Dr ted Naiman is now employed by Diet Dr. Hence change of direction!

I see what you mean. I googled P:E diet and my inbox flooded with references to Ted Naiman. I now understand. When you google safety of P:E diet there is absolutely nothing coming back that supports that POV. what safety checks have been done ? there is plenty that say excessive protein can cause kidney problems.

 

[HSSS]

Ah yes P:E. I think I am wary of this diet direction. Increasing protein with exercise is coming from the Bodybuilding and the weightlifting section of the population. Protein with exercise does seem to be beneficial in terms of all cause mortality especially if the exercise is aerobic. Bodybuilding on the other hand does not involve aerobic exercise and this activity decreases life expectancy (compared to the general populace). Edit to add note: This cohort does take a load of supplements and growth hormone that may explain this trend

Mortality Rate Higher Among Bodybuilders - Renal and Urology News

Reasons are unclear, but use of testosterone and other performance enhance drugs could be a contributing factor.

www.renalandurologynews.com

So for P:E to benefit us diabetics, it necessitates aerobic exercise otherwise it could be harmful(?) As a sedentary diabetic, I will avoid pushing my protein up too much. I wondered where all these suggestions on the forum for protein shakes was coming from.

As you yourself have pointed out there are lots of contributing factors suggesting higher protein reduces life expectancy many of which would not apply to us diabetics using such a method. So a specific issue to drug taking bodybuilding rather than exercise neutral. Where are you sourcing the information that exercise is required for protein to be beneficial? And everything I’ve read debunks the myth that protein harms healthy kidneys. It may well be different for kidneys already struggling. Kind of surprised to see the sweeping generalities without the kind of evidence you usually provide. Sounds a bit like an eatwell advocate rubbishing eating fat to me.

 

[Oldvatr]

As you yourself have pointed out there are lots of contributing factors suggesting higher protein reduces life expectancy many of which would not apply to us diabetics using such a method. So a specific issue to drug taking bodybuilding rather than exercise neutral. Where are you sourcing the information that exercise is required for protein to be beneficial? And everything I’ve read debunks the myth that protein harms healthy kidneys. It may well be different for kidneys already struggling. Kind of surprised to see the sweeping generalities without the kind of evidence you usually provide. Sounds a bit like an eatwell advocate rubbishing eating fat to me.

I am not an Eatwell proponent or advocate, and I did not mention fat at all. If you read this article then one of the levers is exercise. Exercise turns protein into muscle and also turns lipid fat into muscle, so uses up excess amino acids. Makes sense really. But there are many on this Forum who are not able to do meaningful exercise and for these it is not a good idea to push protein heavy diets. I am talking on behalf of this cohort.

How much protein is too much?

Protein has many advantages for health. However, consuming too much protein may negatively affect health. Learn about how much protein a person should consume.

www.medicalnewstoday.com

We have 5 basic dietary levers that we can juggle. Carbs, fibre, minerals, protein and fat. The PE diet emphasises the protein aspect at the cost of reduced fat, and minimises carbs and fibre. I am not convinced that this strategy has been proven to be safe long term. As a T2D using diet control, I have to consider my control needs will be long term (8 years to date)

I have had difficulty finding proper studies on the P:E diet. There is one done by Harvard, and one by a Japanese uni, and a lot of the chatter on the internet traces back to one or other of these studies. They were both short term studies with low numbers, and I would have been happier if there had been more research popping up to support the Naiman initiative. But there is a lot of bland statements being made that I feel are not backed by science (yet)

The high protein diets are usually time limited, and the term pumping iron I believe is the short period used to prime the muscles before a contest using high protein and exercise regime. It is a different story when looking for a diet plan suitable to control a condition such as diabetes.

 

[HSSS]

I am not an Eatwell proponent or advocate, and I did not mention fat at all. If you read this article then one of the levers is exercise. Exercise turns protein into muscle and also turns lipid fat into muscle, so uses up excess amino acids. Makes sense really. But there are many on this Forum who are not able to do meaningful exercise and for these it is not a good idea to push protein heavy diets. I am talking on behalf of this cohort.

How much protein is too much?

Protein has many advantages for health. However, consuming too much protein may negatively affect health. Learn about how much protein a person should consume.

www.medicalnewstoday.com

We have 5 basic dietary levers that we can juggle. Carbs, fibre, minerals, protein and fat. The PE diet emphasises the protein aspect at the cost of reduced fat, and minimises carbs and fibre. I am not convinced that this strategy has been proven to be safe long term. As a T2D using diet control, I have to consider my control needs will be long term (8 years to date)

I have had difficulty finding proper studies on the P:E diet. There is one done by Harvard, and one by a Japanese uni, and a lot of the chatter on the internet traces back to one or other of these studies. They were both short term studies with low numbers, and I would have been happier if there had been more research popping up to support the Naiman initiative. But there is a lot of bland statements being made that I feel are not backed by science (yet)

The high protein diets are usually time limited, and the term pumping iron I believe is the short period used to prime the muscles before a contest using high protein and exercise regime. It is a different story when looking for a diet plan suitable to control a condition such as diabetes.

Oh I’m well aware you don’t support eatwell and wasn’t suggesting that, more comparing the anti protein argument to the anti fat one that is oft heard.

Protein has more functions than simply building muscle though. I can see exercise is a valid “use“ of more protein but I don’t think it’s totally limited by lack of it. I’m curious how the carnivores are faring as they are often protein heavy and some have been doing it for some time.

I agree long term strategy’s are what we need (nearly 5 yrs dietary for me). I think the fact that body building is where this approach is seen most frequently means that’s the source of much information and very much aimed at that audience and using that cohort as the Guinea pigs. What that doesn’t say - either way - is how it relates to the likes of you and me. Absence of data is not evidence of absence or whatever the quote should be. It may not be proven yet but that doesn’t mean it won’t be. (Again compare how low carb/keto was such a tiny unstudied thing that is rapidly changing).

 

[Oldvatr]

One thing I learnt in my travels through ketoland is that if glucose levels are low due to lack of readymade carbs, and fat intake is low, then our bodies scavenge our own protein for making ( by cut and shut) glucose. we self canibalise ourselves if there is an energy deficiency. That is why the fat is in LCHF. It is also why T1D lose weight when uncontrolled . Hence the exercise replaces lost protein with new protein from lipids stored in the liver and adipose tissue.

The P:E diet may lead to weight loss, but is it losing protein in its travel?

I note that Ted Naiman is offering pescatorian advice so is covering the vegetarian base but not vegan. What are we going to do when fish strocks are depleted (which they nearly are now)

I see Dr Naiman has a BSc in mechanical engineering, so I will match that with my BSc in Electrical engineering. He wins in the money making stakes.

He is also medically trained as a GP (family physiciian) . I am not. I was a chartered Engineer (C.Eng) His knowledge was taught by lectures, mine is through research into my own conditon.

I am diabetic. He is not.

 

[HSSS]

Hence the exercise replaces lost protein with new protein from lipids stored in the liver and adipose tissue.

The P:E diet may lead to weight loss, but is it losing protein in its travel?

These sentences confuse me. (Easily done at this time). Can you explain them again please

I believed eating protein (rather than fat) on very low carb levels meant the muscles are protected as it is that eaten protein utilised rather than scavenged muscles.

Is the PE Ratio limited to fish only, I thought it was all proteins. Is it his personal choice to limit it to just fish or the actual protocol? Does it matter if it’s only his personal option rather than a limitation?

Not sure where you are going with the qualification discussion. Many low carb and keto “experts” are not drs and have other qualifications, nor diabetics themselves. Do you discount them on that basis?

 

[Oldvatr]

These sentences confuse me. (Easily done at this time). Can you explain them again please

I believed eating protein (rather than fat) on very low carb levels meant the muscles are protected as it is that eaten protein utilised rather than scavenged muscles.

Is the PE Ratio limited to fish only, I thought it was all proteins. Is it his personal choice to limit it to just fish or the actual protocol? Does it matter if it’s only his personal option rather than a limitation?

Not sure where you are going with the qualification discussion. Many low carb and keto “experts” are not drs and have other qualifications, nor diabetics themselves. Do you discount them on that basis?

The muscle scavenging aspect is associated with keto diets with insufficient protein intake. I believe it was Phinney and Volek who came up with adding fat to prevent this. Since P:E is increased protein this will probably be avoided too, but where the crossover occurs needs more research.

Why Am I Losing Muscle on a Keto Diet? - Keto Fitness Coaching

Is your Keto diet causing muscle loss? Learn why you might be losing muscle on keto and the difference a personalized approach can make.

ketofitnesscoaching.com

The comment on pescatorian is his own personal contribution, so this ties in with my earlier comment that the changes to Diet Doctor may be to include vegetarians.

The qualification comments were made to show that anyone can put forward a thesis or blog, but they are not necessarily the best authority on the subject. He has a slick marketing campaign, but little science behind it. I was bought up in an era where teams of scientists worked on a problem and peer reviewed their work, and then presented their findings. Nowadays we have single guru worship publishing a book and it is not necessarily properly researched. The Carni diet is indeed in full swing but it has not been going long enough to make sure there are no wrinkles. I mean, Atkins had to reformulate their diet plan and that was the forerunner of P:E.

 

[HSSS]

The muscle scavenging aspect is associated with keto diets with insufficient protein intake. I believe it was Phinney and Volek who came up with adding fat to prevent this. Since P:E is increased protein this will probably be avoided too, but where the crossover occurs needs more research.

Why Am I Losing Muscle on a Keto Diet? - Keto Fitness Coaching

Is your Keto diet causing muscle loss? Learn why you might be losing muscle on keto and the difference a personalized approach can make.

ketofitnesscoaching.com

The comment on pescatorian is his own personal contribution, so this ties in with my earlier comment that the changes to Diet Doctor may be to include vegetarians.

The qualification comments were made to show that anyone can put forward a thesis or blog, but they are not necessarily the best authority on the subject. He has a slick marketing campaign, but little science behind it. I was bought up in an era where teams of scientists worked on a problem and peer reviewed their work, and then presented their findings. Nowadays we have single guru worship publishing a book and it is not necessarily properly researched. The Carni diet is indeed in full swing but it has not been going long enough to make sure there are no wrinkles. I mean, Atkins had to reformulate their diet plan and that was the forerunner of P:E.

And that would be why many on keto advise protein is a goal to meet.

Yep it may indeed be why there’s a greater vegetarian focus, but let’s face it the non meat eaters get a lot of attention these days in trying to save the planet.

indeed there are a lot of “experts” but there are such in many dietary fields some of which are more readily accepted than others depending on which way the wind is blowing in the audiences sphere.

 

[AndBreathe]

Dr ted Naiman is now employed by Diet Dr. Hence change of direction!

I think to call him employed could be an assumption too far. Many, many organisations have collaborations with experts in their fields to sit on panels, or do ad hoc work. Not all of that is paid, and those who are are more likely on a very modest retainer. Many expert panels will also have folks skeptical of whatever the approach is, to act as sense checkers/validators or even disruptors.

He may be fully paid up, full-time employed, but, personally, I doubt it.

 

[AloeSvea]

My understanding is more muscular body types can take and need more protein than otherwise. Re Dr Naiman being sporty/athletic/powerlifting, and pro eating protein. Myself personally - I say eat as much protein as you personally like! To myself and friends and loved ones that is. If doing lots of physical work - I would add eat as much protein as you need, also. Oh! And these days of high inflation in particular - as much of quality protein as you can afford! Sadly.

 

[AloeSvea]

ps - I did the quiz, which was fun. Love the food they came up with! For me as a protein loving T2D person, not looking to lose weight, just maintenance.
I'm not sure what such looked like before? As I have been a reader on the site, and haven't done such a quiz before.