Does over eating give you Type 2 diabetes or does diabetes make you over eat

Susiespearish said:

My liver test and my liver scan show i have no fatty liver .My cholesterol and triglyceride levels are excellent and have been tested many times and yet I'm overweight and developed diabetes.

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Marvellous news!

(And i'm the same with the non fatty liver. There are no answers that fit or suit everyone )

Susiespearish said:

Hi all .popped on to update you .Fasting is wonderful .I'm now doing 24 hour fasts twice a week and it sounds mad but I actually prefer my fasting days .I've been full of energy and tackling jobs I haven't had the energy for in months and that's despite having a raging chest infection still . I'm finding my appetite is completely suppressed when I finish my fast and struggle to think what I fancy to eat . I'm struggling with the cauliflower rice (yuk) but loving my soups and not craving sweet stuff much .Lost a full stone slowly but surely but the best news is my Bg's have been very stable ! Between 11 and 12 throughout the days .
I know it's food related because it was my hubbys 50th and I caved on a meal out and had dessert .Bg's whipped back to 25 and boy did I feel ill all night .Won't be doing that again ! I have discovered I can't do the high fat thing too much or the weight loss stops and imy body just wont go in to Ketosis but I'm perfectly happy with how it's going .Even developed a love of peppermint and chamomile tea .Drinks I would have refused point blank a month ago but now actually prefer to normal tea *faints*
I'm trialling Metformin again to see if I can get my Bg's below 10 BUT and this is quite significant I have markedly noticed that along with an upset tummy and increase in heartburn it really does make me crave food again!! Was doing so well with diet alone i may give them a miss this week as I certainly haven't seen any improvement in my Bg's .Quite the opposite ! They've fluctuated far more this last week and thrown in some high readings .

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If I remember rightly. Metformin only worked for me when I ate. Taken with food right? Wrong foods supressed it's benefits too. You have to stick to the directions of use. I found. Maybe the wrong med for fasting or irregular eating patterns?
Very interesting affect on your body. Starvation mode provides adrenaline maybe?
Very interested in your post. Bariatric surgery tries to prevent the starvation mode by eating very little and often. Good arguement to be had on both ends. Just boils down to what to can do or not do.
In the past I've lived on 600 calories on firmaloss milkshakes but may have contributed to developing underactive thyroid. Please be careful when fasting too strictly. I wonder how many people who fasted for religious reasons still ate after night fall but was allowed in their religion for vunerable.
The fact still remains if your metabolism works properly eating reduced portions you are guaranteed to lose weight. Food suppressant tablets in the 70s and 80s worked but put pressure on the heart so were later banned.
A very interesting subject - fasting.

Susiespearish said:

My liver test and my liver scan show i have no fatty liver .My cholesterol and triglyceride levels are excellent and have been tested many times and yet I'm overweight and developed diabetes.

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Roy Taylor accepts that it does not cover all situations and mentions the exceptions in the Reversing Type 2 Diabetes FAQ but otherwise that is what he proposes in the cited paper:

"Evidence linking hepatic insulin sensitivity to intraorgan triglyceride content has been steadily accumulating. In insulin-treated type 2 diabetes, insulin dose correlates with the extent of fatty liver (35), and in turn, this is associated with insulin sensitivity to suppression of hepatic glucose production (36). Decreasing the fat content of liver is associated with improvement in insulin suppression of glucose production and, thereby, with improvement in fasting plasma glucose"

Hi @ickihun

I had tried Metformin previously taken as directed ie. with food and it didn't work for me then either .I take 100gms Januvia daily but it's fascinating to me the huge drop in my Bg's since I stopped insulin .I was up to over a 100ml daily and my bg's were permanently up in the 20's .Within one week of stopping completely my levels were down to 14s and 15's and they stayed like that for two weeks until i started fasting .After just one 12 hour fast they dropped down in to the 12s and stayed there ! despite me continuing to eat normally .Now I'm getting readings of under 10 occasionally after over 2 years of taking the meds handed me and no improvement .For me at least there is no question in my mind that Insulin was doing me no favours .I'm a firm believer in Dr Fungs theory now as I have the proof right in front of my eyes six times a day
It really doesn't feel like "fasting" or hardship in any way as I drink normally throughout the day and often have a cup of broth .
Like most "addicts" i find the less time I spend thinking or worrying about food the less I want anything .For me ,it's a manageable way to handle food addiction which is a huge plus in my book .

I can't agree with you that reducing portions makes you lose weight as i truly believe that it works as Dr Fung feels and long term has no effect .They did a study of 50,000 ! american Women in 2006 and reduced their calories and upped their exercise .Over a 7.5 year study their total combined weight loss was not one pound or kg.In fact they actually gained weight .Very similar to the findings on WW and Slimming Club.I want long term weight loss and in my opinion after reading extensively I believe we do have to reset our set body weight or our bodies constantly try to get back to that weight .My understanding is fasting can do that .Early days clearly but i want to test that theory


Heres the link to the study https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/the-cruel-hoax-of-the-low-fat-diet-calories-part-ix/

The official study page http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16391215

Susiespearish said:

I believe we do have to reset our set body weight or our bodies constantly try to get back to that weight .My understanding is fasting can do that .Early days clearly but i want to test that theory

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That's what Taylor writes in the very first sentance of the cited paper:

"Reversal of type 2 diabetes to normal metabolic control by either bariatric surgery or hypocaloric diet allows for the time sequence of underlying pathophysiologic mechanisms to be observed."

That was based on the 2011 study:
Reversal of type 2 diabetes: normalisation of beta cell function in association with decreased pancreas and liver triacylglycerol.

Subsequently supported by the population response in 2013:
Population response to information on reversibility of Type 2 diabetes.

And again reaffirmed in 2015:
Restoring normoglycaemia by use of a very low calorie diet in long- and short-duration Type 2 diabetes.

Tha latter is aimed at people who have had type 2 for more than 8 years but, essentially, they all say the same thing:

"In people with Type 2 diabetes of > 8 years' duration, a therapeutic trial of a very-low-calorie diet may be undertaken with a 50% chance of achieving non-diabetic fasting glucose levels off all antidiabetic therapies."

By 'hypocaloric' or 'very low calorie', they tested at 600 per day, effectively a fasting diet. If you start early enough, the chances are 86%, according to the studies.

Yorksman said:

That's what Taylor writes in the very first sentance of the cited paper:

"Reversal of type 2 diabetes to normal metabolic control by either bariatric surgery or hypocaloric diet allows for the time sequence of underlying pathophysiologic mechanisms to be observed."

That was based on the 2011 study:
Reversal of type 2 diabetes: normalisation of beta cell function in association with decreased pancreas and liver triacylglycerol.

Subsequently supported by the population response in 2013:
Population response to information on reversibility of Type 2 diabetes.

And again reaffirmed in 2015:
Restoring normoglycaemia by use of a very low calorie diet in long- and short-duration Type 2 diabetes.

Tha latter is aimed at people who have had type 2 for more than 8 years but, essentially, they all say the same thing:

"In people with Type 2 diabetes of > 8 years' duration, a therapeutic trial of a very-low-calorie diet may be undertaken with a 50% chance of achieving non-diabetic fasting glucose levels off all antidiabetic therapies."

By 'hypocaloric' or 'very low calorie', they tested at 600 per day, effectively a fasting diet. If you start early enough, the chances are 86%, according to the studies.

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So the same conclusion but vastly differing views on how to achieve that Yorksman Interesting ! Fung believes your body simply adapts to however many calories your eating and adjusts your energy output accordingly .Therefore calories don't play a big part in his theory although carbs do .
Will be interesting to see what happens in a few weeks as I'm making sure not to cut calories ,only carbs and increasing fat to full fat as natural as possible products .My whole intention is to NOT join the watching what I eat ,weighing foods,obsessing cycle again .I'm just trying to eat as healthy as possible foods in reasonable quantities to prevent hunger and forget about any kind of low fat low sugar rubbish.So far it's working well with a consistent weight loss and great fresh cooked food .I want something simple that I can stick to for life ,not a 600 calorie limit that will revert the moment i eat "normally" again

One thing both studies agree upon is you need weight loss to reverse diabetes .Hence the good results for bariatric patients.Will be interesting to see what happens to the people on the study long term .

I tried a zero carb but unlimited protein when it was fashionable in the early 1980s. What's not to like about unlimited bacon and eggs for breakfast, steaks with creamy sauces etc?

The weight did come off but I was heartily sick of it after 10 days or so. The idea was that you did it for 10 days and then went back to a normal diet for 10 days and that you repeated this cycle 3 times. I could never manage a 3rd time.

Yorksman said:

I tried a zero carb but unlimited protein when it was fashionable in the early 1980s. What's not to like about unlimited bacon and eggs for breakfast, steaks with creamy sauces etc?

The weight did come off but I was heartily sick of it after 10 days or so. The idea was that you did it for 10 days and then went back to a normal diet for 10 days and that you repeated this cycle 3 times. I could never manage a 3rd time.

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Yes Anything becomes boring after a while which is why I'm trying lots of different recipes and foods .I'm very lucky, a couple of potatoes or a slice of bread don't alter my Bg's at all but for a lady who's not a big fan of meat it's been challenging .I've reverted back to a nice roast with lovely fresh veg as my go to favourite .I'm able to tolerate a couple of roast parsnips instead of potatoes .I tell everyone I'm eating like my granny .Luckily i grow a lot of veg so know it's fresh and natural .That's the hardest thing ! Finding a good source of meat and veg that hasn't been left on a shelf too long .Some great recipes online though and soup is my saviour

ickihun said:

If I remember rightly. Metformin only worked for me when I ate. Taken with food right? Wrong foods supressed it's benefits too. You have to stick to the directions of use. I found. Maybe the wrong med for fasting or irregular eating patterns?.

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I waded through the stuff on Metformin on medicines.org.uk and found that Metformin performance decreases by 30% AUC in a fasting state.

Dried fruit, grains and potatoes are higher glycemic than table sugar, by weight.

Cl1ve said:

Hi . I don't thing the problem with sugar is its glycemic rate . It's the fact that it has absolutely no nutrition at all it's been striped of anything valuable to us the only value is commercial

Clive

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Here is a interesting picture from an article about bmi and diabetes. 16 percent of the women with a normal AND underweight BMi had a bodyfat of 16 percent. For men it was 6 percent.

http://i2.nyt.com/images/2015/08/28/science/bodyfat-bmi/bodyfat-bmi-jumbo-v2.png

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...i-misleading?smid=tw-nytimesscience&smtyp=cur

I have also fond this website, it is a newly started initative, diapedia. It is supposed to be the wikipedia of diabetes.

http://www.diapedia.org/

One of the most interesting pages I found was this one. http://www.diapedia.org/type-2-diabetes-mellitus/3104085122/genetics-of-type-2-diabetes

It shows some twinstudies done with monozygotic twins. The found twin pairs with diabetes type 2 and checked the percentagewize difference.

In the finnish study only 36 percent of the pairs both had it, but in the japanese twin study it was 83%!

They also show this very interesting british study, where they follow a pair of twins for over 15 years, but originally only one of the twins had it. After the follow period over 75 % percent of the healthy twins had developed it! But that still leaves 25% which did not get it.

These studies only strengthen my theory that excess fat of the wrong kind causes diabetes, caused by overeating. nothing else can explain that people with so like genetic material can have such a spread in the normalcy of the disease.

Roytaylorjasonfunglover said:

These studies only strengthen my theory that excess fat of the wrong kind causes diabetes, caused by overeating. nothing else can explain that people with so like genetic material can have such a spread in the normalcy of the disease.

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The problem with having a pet theory is that it predisposes you to narrow thinking.

I can think of several non-dietary reasons why people (even identical twins) may/may not develop T2.

These include environmental factors such as pollution, stress, disease, accidents, injury, infection and inflammation (e.g. Pancreatitis), cancer treatments, steroids, medications that increase or decrease insulin resistance, exposure to sunlight (vit D plays a large part in autoimmune issues) depression and anti depressants, sleep deprivation, career choices (activity levels getting to work, and while at work), hobbies, interests... Plus sport and exercise levels, of course.

You are also failing to take into account that there are more obese people without T2 than obese people with T2. There are also slim T2s. And T2s who have been fat, and got slim, and others who have been slim and got fat.

So even if bad diet is a causal factor (which it may be) there are clearly other variables in play.

Brunneria said:

The problem with having a pet theory is that it predisposes you to narrow thinking.

These include environmental factors such as pollution, stress, disease, accidents, injury, infection and inflammation (e.g. Pancreatitis), cancer treatments, steroids, medications that increase or decrease insulin resistance, exposure to sunlight (vit D plays a large part in autoimmune issues) depression and anti depressants, sleep deprivation, career choices (activity levels getting to work, and while at work), hobbies, interests... Plus sport and exercise levels, of course.

You are also failing to take into account that there are more obese people without T2 than obese people with T2. There are also slim T2s. And T2s who have been fat, and got slim, and others who have been slim and got fat.

So even if bad diet is a causal factor (which it may be) there are clearly other variables in play.

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I agree that all those factors you mentioned play a role, and people live in reallife, not a perfect ideal world full of unlimited time and perfect knowledge.

In my mind genetics play a very large factor and I think those twinstudies show that. If you do not have "bad" diabetes genetics you will not get it, however large you may be, but if you got the genes, diabetes will by triggered by having to much of the wrong kind of bodyfat.

As you rightfully point out, most obese people do not have diabetes, but they are lucky with the genes. And you have slim t2s, a lot of them btw, but many of them have a very high bodyfat percentage%, even though they their bmi is well within the normal range.

So yeah still in my opinion weightloss is by far the most important thing you could do to diabetes. Sleep plays a big role, as do exercise, but bodyfat is a lot more important than those factors.

Look at this stunning example of twins, the one who lost weight does not have diabetes, the one that still maintained his excess bodyfat still has diabetes.

And if you read it closely the only difference in weight was 20 pounds, when the diabetic twin got diagnosed, and the non-diabetic lost some more just to be safe.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=122104219

Cl1ve said:

Hi . thanks for the responce . there is a book that might interest you its called .sugar the bitter truth . it can explain why diabetes can make you over eat
clive

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I think sugar is really bad for you, but mostly since it is in the form of sodas, candy, and an additative in processed foods. Most people will not get owerweight by eating fruit!

Why did type 2 become associated with overeating when it was first thought elderly people were the only type 2s. Most elderly people then were renound for losing their appetite and stopped making hearty dinners.

Cl1ve said:

yes it is sad that some people think that way .
Clive

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http://care.diabetesjournals.org/co...entinform-links=yes&legid=diacare;dc15-0750v1

This is a new paper by Professor Roy Taylor at Newcastle university, a nondiabetic group, the control, and a diabetic group was matched for sex,age and weight, and they then underwent gastric bypass, after 8 weeks they were studied. Both groups lost the same amount of weight, 12% and 13% , but only the diabetic group lost substantial amount of fat from the pancreas. The non-diabetic did not lose that much fat from the pancreas. So the reason for diabetes is excess fat in the wrong places. However we do not know how to pinpoint that pancreatic fat, so the only way to get rid of it, is to lose weight in general. This is a monumental paper. It alsp explains why thin people can get diabetes type 2, since they have only gotten fat in their pancreas.