Doing the Newcastle

ringi

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,365
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Let's be very careful about how we define "success", nearly everyone lost some fat from their liver, so if they don't put that fat back on, then they are in better health then before the ND. Yet he defined "success" at A1C levels that most of us consider is just the start on the road to recovery.

However, he talked about "low carb" as being a great way for some people to keep off the weight in a recent editorial he wrote. I think the main objection I have to the ND is that most people don't think of it as part of a much longer process.
 

AlcalaBob

Well-Known Member
Messages
178
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Insulin
Week 8 Day 53 Thursday 1st February. FBG 5.3 Weight 97.4kg

Another routine set of figures and the weight is still dropping little by little. Another few days and I could well be seeing a 96 which would round off the eight weeks nicely. I've been reflecting a lot about how much I've learned about how my body has responded to the diet, particularly about how to manage the insulin, the factors affecting weight loss, etc. I've benefitted greatly from the comments and discussions which have invariably made me think through the issues much more carefully. Definitely a continual learning process. Three more days left to complete the eight weeks and a few more months to reach my target weight, but I now feel in control. Good feeling. I'm no longer constantly playing catch-up with medication. Despite the rather poor stats on 'success' for my diabetes group, I remain quite hopeful.
 

AlcalaBob

Well-Known Member
Messages
178
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Insulin
Week 8 Day 54 Friday 2nd February. FBG 5.8 Weight 97.6kg

Figures are very slightly up but the trend is still good. There's a sense of just sitting it out now for the last few days but the reality is that this continues for the next couple of months. It's probably quite negative psychologically to see it in terms of ending, because I'm actually only half way. Even the idea of taking a break implies that things might change quite a lot. The challenge is to provide enough intake to get some energy back (I do feel generally tired now most of the time) but without putting on any weight and without pushing up the BG. Plenty of options to try. Week 9 will be a kind of transition week for me, reintroducing some low carb foods and making small adjustments.
 
Last edited:

Tabbyjoolz

Well-Known Member
Messages
557
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
Dislikes
Cruelty, bigotry
@AlcalaBob - you have done so well! And what impressive results! Well done for persevering.

I stopped after two and a half weeks - I wasn't feeling great - so I decided it wasn't for me and returned to LCHF.
 
  • Like
Reactions: AlcalaBob

AlcalaBob

Well-Known Member
Messages
178
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Insulin
@AlcalaBob - you have done so well! And what impressive results! Well done for persevering.

I stopped after two and a half weeks - I wasn't feeling great - so I decided it wasn't for me and returned to LCHF.
I hope it's all going well for you with the LCHF. Since I've felt pretty rotten many times through the diabetes over many years, I decided to stick it out on the grounds that it's more of a medical intervention than just a diet and that getting that weight reduction was worth it. I think that the shocking the liver into losing fat was crucial and once having seen some recovered sensitivity, I didn't want to jeopardise it. Taylor argues that you can't recover that insulin sensitivity in the liver without the initial shock. I guess that'll be the subject of a lot of future research. Only a few days left and with the exception of one day when I went up to 900, I stayed within the limit - still only managed to lose around 9kg so far though. Even if I don't recover full sensitivity, I've already benefited enormously from doing the ND and I'm fairly sure I'll do it again to lose the remaining weight. Thanks for your support, much appreciated.
 

MikeTheFid

Member
Messages
8
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Tablets (oral)
Well done you! I'm so impressed with your discipline and progress. Very heartening. I also love the respectful debates. I have learned a lot following your thread.
 
  • Like
Reactions: AlcalaBob

AlcalaBob

Well-Known Member
Messages
178
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Insulin
Week 8 Day 55 Saturday 3rd February. FBG 5.9 Weight 97.0kg

Feeling quite contented with those numbers at the end of week eight. Before the diet, for many months my weight would barely budge from 107kg and any drop at all quickly sprang back, as if it was a thermostat setting. On starting the ND it was 106 point something, and certainly in a day or two it'll be 96 point something so I think it's not too unreasonable to think in terms of ten kilos of weight loss. Which is the half way mark for me. Pleased with that. Tomorrow I'll post a brief round-up and then maybe post an occasional update as I get to the target. I've really appreciated the interest and support as well as the well-informed and helpful comments and suggestions.
 

Salvia

Well-Known Member
Messages
812
Type of diabetes
Prediabetes
Treatment type
Diet only
Thank you so much for sharing your journey with us, @AlcalaBob, following your progress has been both a pleasure and a lesson (in staying-power, mostly! but also in how to approach the diet and its potential issues) Your resolution is an inspiration; I wish you all the best, and every success in the next stage of your progress
 
  • Like
Reactions: AlcalaBob

AlcalaBob

Well-Known Member
Messages
178
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Insulin
Week 8 Day 56 Sunday 4th February. FBG 6.0 Weight 97.0kg

And that's the end of week eight, ND completed, well, at least the first phase. I'm looking forward to introducing some real food over the next week but without relaxing control over the blood and weight loss. That's the next challenge. I'm pleased to have completed it and very pleased with the results. I'll post a round up a little later but this is the last daily update. It's helped me to keep the log and I've learned a lot from comments and advice in the process. Totally worth doing. Thanks everyone for your help.
 

AlcalaBob

Well-Known Member
Messages
178
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Insulin
Here's my opinion on things I can take away from doing the ND over the last eight weeks.

1
It works, it does what it says on the can, if you stick to it, don't cheat, and stay sensible. It's based on the principle of shocking the liver into burning its stored fat so that it recovers insulin sensitivity. That requires a radical drop in energy intake. I think that if you don't do this, the liver recovery will be limited and probably short-term. In my first week, I saw a big drop in FBG down to normal levels, literally within a few days. I think everyone will see that but those who drop out early, will see very little long-term benefit even if they lost some weight.

2
The big drop in FBG signals the shift to burning fat by the liver and an almost immediate recovery of some insulin sensitivity. That means you have to be aware of the effect of your medications. If you are on insulin-stimulating drugs or insulin itself, you need to be aware of the appropriate new doses. Your GP, if they're supportive, should be able to advise you. I didn't have that supportive GP so I had to play it by ear, monitor closely, and make adjustments. It's safe providing you make small changes and monitor closely. If in any doubt, talk to your GP.

3
I rightly reduced my medication as my FBG came down but I made a mistake in assuming that I'd be able to eliminate my insulin altogether. It was over-optimistic, over-ambitious and I couldn't do that. I'm a long-standing diabetic and had I read the research more carefully, I would have realised that the recovery of the pancreas is by no means assured. If you've had diabetes for more than ten years, it can take a long time, and may never happen. I was too optimistic, too early, and continued the reduction of my dose throughout weeks 2 and 3 so that by the end of week 4, I had stopped my insulin, down from 56U to zero in a fortnight. My FBG started to climb quite dramatically after a few days of zero insulin and I had to reinstate the insulin, back up to 35U, which I have maintained to the end of week 8. This stabilised my FBG in the range of 4s and 5s. The take-away lesson here is that medication is an issue and medical advice is important, especially for anyone taking insulin. Despite clinical trials which say all medication was eliminated, that's under clinically controlled and monitored conditions - if you're doing the ND on your own, you need close monitoring and may need to maintain some medication under GP advice. It's a medical issue and forum advice cannot be a substitute for a medically-informed GP judgement.

4
Weight loss is a complex business. The energy in = energy out (gluttony & sloth) story is a complete myth because it doesn't account for metabolic rate, efficiency, and a number of other significant factors. The presence of insulin encourages the deposition of triglycerides so whilst it keeps FBG numbers good, it inhibits weight loss. Low energy intake therefore does not guarantee weight loss - it can simply result in a lower metabolic rate. This is what I saw in my own case - 98kg for weeks on end with only 800 kcals per day is certainly counter-intuitive! By the end of week 8, I was tired much of the time. Balancing the insulin, energy intake, and activity level can result in some weight loss - I managed it in the end - but it's tricky and it's easy to jump to the wrong conclusions. If you're in this position, I think you need to control all three factors very carefully and consistently and not jump to conclusions. Small changes, made slowly, is the best way. The best you are likely to get is a small, slow, gradual decrease in weight. Reducing insulin to increase weight loss will likely push up FBG and that in turn, feeds the vicious cycles affecting the liver and pancreas so it's not a solution that can be maintained. Any continued reduction in FBG will require some restored functionality from the pancreas and that is likely to take a long time for long-standing diabetics. I think a further reduction in insulin depends on recovered function in the pancreas which may be a long time coming so perhaps I'm stuck with the insulin for some time to come. I didn't fully appreciate all this until I started to control the insulin and activity level much more carefully.

5
Diets, and especially the ND, are not ends in themselves for me, so success on a diet isn't just determined by how easy or difficult it is, whether or not I enjoy it, or by how much weight is lost. To me, the ND is a medical intervention and the aim is to restore functionality to the liver and pancreas so that the diabetic condition can be contained and maybe reversed. So the ND, and any of the well-known diets, is just the first step and it will need to start a longer-term process of protecting the liver and pancreas with appropriate weight, appropriate food. In a sense 'life style' is the wrong phrase, it doesn't need the 'style' bit. It's not a hobby or a pastime, something to pick up and drop in order to choose an alternative. For me this is about correcting and restoring a damaged metabolism, and whatever it takes isn't about lifestyle, it's about health. And there are lots of regimes to help with that and doubtless I'll look at a number of them with much greater understanding now.

6
The use of a forum such as this is really, really valuable. Not just because of the useful, pertinent, detailed advice regularly on offer, but as an essential sounding board, a corrective, to what we might be thinking. It's very useful to have a comment like "Have you thought about..." or "Some people have reported that..." or "Have you seen the research from...". Going through an attempt to recover control over diabetes can be an emotional as well as physical experience and our judgements can easily be swayed back and forth, optimistic and pessimistic in turn. Everyone's experience can help providing we are open-minded, respectful, and think about what we're given. We shouldn't feel sleighted if our idea isn't accepted (it's about the ideas rather than whoever is presenting them) - rather we should ask ourselves why and see if it's a reasonable rejection. I've changed my mind over a number of things as a result of comments and advice on this forum and I thank everyone for that. It's really helped.

7
Perhaps the most important thing I take away from all this is the clear need for detailed, accurate, consistent, scientific explanation. Us diabetics are inundated with all manner of suggestions about how to manage the condition. Some suggestions are clearly without merit but very many others are simply unclear, or undecided. We can try them all out but without controlled conditions, we can never fully trust our own individual conclusions. We might believe something works but we can't know it. In the case of the ND, there is solid reliable science behind it. In addition there is a growing body of empirical clinical evidence from clinicians like Fung who have detailed their results for critical examination. That's something we can trust, study, and understand. There are still lots of holes but I'm confident that the core of the scientific problem has been solved and that this approach can and does work. Of course it has to be optimism tempered by realism. But solid science gives good grounds for hope.

All the best, everyone.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Serena51

Begonia

Well-Known Member
Messages
120
Type of diabetes
Prediabetes
Treatment type
I do not have diabetes
Very well done for sticking rigidly to the diet. I have read your posts every day and saw your struggle with reducing the insulin and the slow loss of weight on only 800kcal. I also admire your scientific approach. I've read quite a bit of Prof Taylors work on the twin cycle hypothesis and clearing out liver and pancreatic fat. One thing I don't quite get is exactly what diet / cal consumption achieves the improvement/reversal/.... your first point is that its the 'shock' of a huge calorie reduction that triggers it, however I seem to remember Prof Taylor saying it doesn't matter how you lose weight or how long it takes as long as you lose about 15% body weight (or 15kg). Is there a paper you could point me at which discusses this 'shock' aspect ? (just trying to understand the science more... I do get that in his studies the diet was 800kcal of shakes and veg as this was a way of controlling the variables)
 

AlcalaBob

Well-Known Member
Messages
178
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Insulin
I can offer my take on this but I think there's still a lot of science to be done on it all. I think it's important to recognise that Taylor's work is about metabolic recovery, and not just weight loss and there's a lot more research to come on the specific relationship between the weight loss and the recovery of pancreatic function. Taylor noticed that following bariatric surgery, and before significant weight loss, the liver recovered insulin sensitivity and BG levels returned to normal. That's why he identified the 'shock' caused by sudden decrease in energy intake. It's this shock that signals breaking the vicious cycles linking liver and pancreatic dysfunction. He argued that as weight came down, depleting the fat stored in the pancreas, pancreatic function could recover too. How much and over how long a period is, I think, still uncertain but the figure of 15kg minimum or 15% of body weight seemed to be a key number. This was outlined in his paper "Type 2 Diabetes: Etiology and reversibility" which is available:
http://images.biomedsearch.com/23520370/1047.pdf?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAIBOKHYOLP4MBMRGQ&Expires=1517875200&Signature=/UvNBdtuVHBltjE/TP768idWF5I=

My understanding is that if the liver change hasn't been established, the vicious cycles linking liver and pancreas may well continue unchanged, so although you might lose some weight, the biochemistry hasn't been recovered so the condition returns. But once you've depleted the liver fat and re-established normal blood glucose, the cycles are broken and this then opens the possibility that sustained weight loss might lead to pancreatic recovery. Maintaining that weight is then the insurance against the condition returning. If the vicious metabolic cycles persist though, I think sustained recovery or remission is unlikely. This will surely be the subject of a lot of future research and there's a lot more to be established and understood about the mechanisms. His theory does makes very good sense though and suggests trials which can test these predictions.
 
  • Like
Reactions: mondFi and Salvia

Begonia

Well-Known Member
Messages
120
Type of diabetes
Prediabetes
Treatment type
I do not have diabetes
Thanks for the explanation... it makes sense and is in line with the original idea of mimicking bariatric surgery. Much more sense than just losing a lot of weight over however long a period. I'll take a look at that paper.
 
  • Like
Reactions: AlcalaBob

bulkbiker

BANNED
Messages
19,576
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
Your thoughts prompted me to search for pre-bariatric surgery dietary advice.

https://www.guysandstthomas.nhs.uk/...ics/reducing-the-size-of-your-liver-final.pdf

Hmm cut carbs... to shrink your liver.. could this explain why bariatric surgery can "cure Type 2" before weight loss?
Is it the pre surgery diet rather than the surgery itself?

I'm guessing this is what Prof Taylor is experimenting with.

I wonder what a 2 week fat fast would achieve?
 
  • Like
Reactions: AlcalaBob

bulkbiker

BANNED
Messages
19,576
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
Then found this at the very end....

"
How will I feel while I am on this diet?

As your body responds to the diet it releases ketones, which are made when the body breaks down fat for energy. These are released in the breath, urine and sweat – sometimes causing odour. You may also experience other symptoms such as thirst, and a slightly metallic taste in the mouth. In addition, you may also find that your appetite is suppressed after the first 3 - 4 days, meaning that you feel much less hungry than you would have expected. Some people report feeling a little light-headed in the first few days. Just make sure you are sticking to the plan and drinking plenty – this will pass. "

Get into ketosis pre bariatric surgery....!
 

Roytaylorjasonfunglover

Well-Known Member
Messages
272
Type of diabetes
Family member
Treatment type
I do not have diabetes
Very interesting journey you have done. If you are interested in science behind weightloss and keeping your lost weight off, I advice you to seek out Stephan Guyenet, and watch his lectures on youtube and his podcasts. His theories have helped me lose 40 kgs, and he is really scientific and a good bloke, the Roy Taylor of obesity research. He has also a book, the Hungry Brain, go read it, its the one book about weightloss you need to read!
 

AlcalaBob

Well-Known Member
Messages
178
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Insulin
Very interesting journey you have done. If you are interested in science behind weightloss and keeping your lost weight off, I advice you to seek out Stephan Guyenet, and watch his lectures on youtube and his podcasts. His theories have helped me lose 40 kgs, and he is really scientific and a good bloke, the Roy Taylor of obesity research. He has also a book, the Hungry Brain, go read it, its the one book about weightloss you need to read!
Just got it on kindle :)
 

CoastGirl

Well-Known Member
Messages
106
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
Thanks so much for this thread @AlcalaBob. It has been very interesting and extremely informative. Please continue to update us and wishing you much success with your ongoing journey :)
 
  • Like
Reactions: AlcalaBob

Emmaathome

Newbie
Messages
4
Type of diabetes
Type 2
I really hope you don't get discouraged because I think there's quite a lot of variation in how we react to the diet. On the ND, I very strictly limited my intake to a maximum of 800 calories per day with virtually no exceptions (I think I hit about 900 on just one day) and that sudden reduction in energy intake, according to Prof Roy Taylor, is what shocks the liver into recovering some insulin sensitivity and that's what results in the rapid drop in BG. I don't know what intake level you were on but anything more than that very low level might not produce the same response from the liver. I think we all have to be hopeful and realistic in equal measure but also recognise that the ND is very strict indeed and those levels of intake really do need to be very low. If you're not down to that very low level, I'd try that for a little while just to see the response. There's no guarantee of course but it might be worth a try.

I started the ND knowing that for long-standing diabetics like me with almost fourteen years on the clock, a full reversal was less likely so I was sort of hopeful but fairly realistic. Taylor warns that after ten years, the response rate of the pancreas is much lower. I'm really pleased with the vastly improved BG control but that's on a very low energy intake diet and there's some way to go to get proper control on a more energy-rich diet. I'm still hopeful and will quite likely repeat the diet and remove the rest of the weight and that would give me a much better chance of recovering pancreas function - if it's still a possibility for me.

Best of luck. I hope you stay with it.


Thank you for this.

I am still on it, nearing the end of week 5. i have been having approx 600 cals a day, with one week of 800 cals a day, then back to 600. no cheating, not even with milk in coffee!!! However, i am still most defo diabetic, with a waking level of 11.9 this morning - how that is possible after an evening meal of a piece of oven baked cod, cauli, broccoli and cabbage i dont know! My dawn phenomenon seems to be the thing that i can't fix, no matter what! Still, i'm going to persevere till i've done 12 weeks and wee where i am at that stage. If it doesnt work on the diabetes, then i tried my best. I also learned some good lessons - i dont need pasta, rice, bread or potatos to live!!! i dont need a mountain of food on my plate. and i will be thinner!!
 

AlcalaBob

Well-Known Member
Messages
178
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Insulin
Thank you for this.

I am still on it, nearing the end of week 5. i have been having approx 600 cals a day, with one week of 800 cals a day, then back to 600. no cheating, not even with milk in coffee!!! However, i am still most defo diabetic, with a waking level of 11.9 this morning - how that is possible after an evening meal of a piece of oven baked cod, cauli, broccoli and cabbage i dont know! My dawn phenomenon seems to be the thing that i can't fix, no matter what! Still, i'm going to persevere till i've done 12 weeks and wee where i am at that stage. If it doesnt work on the diabetes, then i tried my best. I also learned some good lessons - i dont need pasta, rice, bread or potatos to live!!! i dont need a mountain of food on my plate. and i will be thinner!!
I had a similar rise in blood glucose but after I'd cut out the medication. I was too optimistic, thinking that the good reduction of BG was enough to justify the cut. In my case it wasn't and I had to go back to the insulin to control it. I suspect that until the pancreas recovers functionality, we can't really get off the meds. For short-term diabetics it's more of a possibility but for me, certainly it wasn't. Nevertheless, I've still been able to lose the weight even with the insulin and that's what opens the possibility of pancreas recovery so I don't think of it negatively. All the best for the rest of the ND. I've just completed mine but will start it again in the near future to lose the rest of the weight. I'm down by 11kg so far but my target is to lose another nine so I'll keep going. Best of luck.
 
  • Like
Reactions: mondFi