Dr Jason Fung & Prof Roy Taylor both trying to mimic bariatric surgery ?

ringi · Sep 28, 2017

The blood sugar that SGL2 make your body put down the WC, is not being converted into fat, unlike most other Type2 drugs that convert BG into yet more fat. SGL2 have also been shown recently to reduce Heart Disease risks unlike most Type2 drugs that increase the risk.

I recall one forum poster that found SLG2 with low carb allowed them to eat normal size protein and still get good post-meal GB readings when without SLG2 they needed to be very low carb and low protein. They tested positive for ketos when using SLG2 but not without, hence SLG2 seem to enable their body to burn fat. Hence for someone that does not want to be "stuck at 10g carbs a day for life", they may be a good option to give a little more flexibility in meals.

ickihun · Sep 28, 2017

ringi said:
The blood sugar that SGL2 make your body put down the WC, is not being converted into fat, unlike most other Type2 drugs that convert BG into yet more fat. SGL2 have also been shown recently to reduce Heart Disease risks unlike most Type2 drugs that increase the risk.

I recall one forum poster that found SLG2 with low carb allowed them to eat normal size protein and still get good post-meal GB readings when without SLG2 they needed to be very low carb and low protein. They tested positive for ketos when using SLG2 but not without, hence SLG2 seem to enable their body to burn fat. Hence for someone that does not want to be "stuck at 10g carbs a day for life", they may be a good option to give a little more flexibility in meals.

It's becoming a very popular type2 drug, if no side affect. It may one day become as popular as metformin.
It is compatible with metformin, I believe.
The two above methods of reversing type2 is aimed at diet and exercise only so these drugs would confuse their true effectiveness?
Also a longterm diabetic like me makes diet and exercise only results harder to achieve after years of medicine support, especially insulin support. Although not totally impossible.
My fast acting insulin need is getting less and less as I lose weight and seem to be reducing my insulin resistance. To be honest, out of the blue. I'm still 119.60kgs heavy so I'd be surprised if I've found my fat threshold as to be honest I'm getting fattier but less muscle dense. Maybe my big muscles were causing worse liver dumps (muscle glucose dumps).
Reducing muscle I could afford to lose has definitely made a huge difference, for me!
I'm now wondering if my heart muscle was also glucose dumping (out through the arteries and vains) in and out of this complex muscle? Exacerbating atherosclerosis?
I guess heart the only muscle which cannot reduce in size in times of less protein?

ringi · Sep 29, 2017

muscles can not dump glucose into your blood, but they can without warning stop taking up glucose from your blood when they switch to using their own store.

Begonia · Sep 30, 2017

ringi said:
@Begonia

and may help you to understand Dr Roy Taylor’s Twin cycle Hypotheses. Google will give you lot of additional results for “Dr Roy Taylor’s Twin cycle”

If you have not studied human biology and/or biochemistry expect to have to google lots of words you don’t understand, but with a few hours of study, you will start to understand what they are talking about.

When Dr Roy Taylor talks about a “positive calorie diet” remember that it is mostly carb that drives the process not calories from fat, and it seems that when people eat more fat, they often choose to eat less total calories.

Also remember that we each of a different level of underlining insulin resistance in our “normal cells”, therefore, a different limit of how much carbs we can consume before we start the Twin Cycle going. Some people have such high insulin resistance even when all fat has been removed from the liver that their body can never control BG when they eat lots of carbs, and eating carbs put fat back in the liver however much exercise they are getting. Other people can eat a normal “sensible” level of carbs (as per the NHS eat well plate) once they have removed all the fat from their liver without putting the fat back on the liver.

@ringi,
Thank you for these links. From your other posts I can see that you are very well informed on all this stuff. I need to do some more reading / watching !

Prof Taylor seems quite convinced that the excess (<1 gram) of fat in the pancreas is the key to it (at least he was a while ago. don't know if the DIRECT study will show the same). Doctor Fung doesn't seem to mention this from what I've read so far. Any views ?

ringi · Sep 30, 2017

Doctor Fung cares most about what works in real life for real people to get great long-term results, he uses science when needed to so this.

Prof Taylor cares most about the science and all the details of what is going on and choose the methods that allow him to get published at top conferences regardless of how practical they are for real people in real life. At present he is withholding results that may help us, so he gets to speak at the top conferences.

badcat · Sep 30, 2017

Harsh

ringi · Sep 30, 2017

Remember it is Prof Taylor speaking at the top conferences that will convert GPs in the long term to a belief that Type2 can be reversed. He is the first person most doctors think is"credible" to say Type2 does not have to keep getting worse.

Guzzler · Oct 1, 2017

ringi said:
@Begonia

and may help you to understand Dr Roy Taylor’s Twin cycle Hypotheses. Google will give you lot of additional results for “Dr Roy Taylor’s Twin cycle”

If you have not studied human biology and/or biochemistry expect to have to google lots of words you don’t understand, but with a few hours of study, you will start to understand what they are talking about.

When Dr Roy Taylor talks about a “positive calorie diet” remember that it is mostly carb that drives the process not calories from fat, and it seems that when people eat more fat, they often choose to eat less total calories.

Also remember that we each of a different level of underlining insulin resistance in our “normal cells”, therefore, a different limit of how much carbs we can consume before we start the Twin Cycle going. Some people have such high insulin resistance even when all fat has been removed from the liver that their body can never control BG when they eat lots of carbs, and eating carbs put fat back in the liver however much exercise they are getting. Other people can eat a normal “sensible” level of carbs (as per the NHS eat well plate) once they have removed all the fat from their liver without putting the fat back on the liver.

I went straight to youtube and listened to the whole one hour fifteen minute lecture. Fascinating stuff. I was especially interested in the Profs theory on 'Personal fat threshold'. If this turns out to be correct then explains a lot and, who know, in the future it could lead to HbA1c tests being given to everyone no matter what weight you happen to be.
Thanks for posting the vids.

Guzzler · Oct 1, 2017

Prof. Taylor's thoughts on excercise were interesting. I have lowered my bg and lost weight with zero excercise so I know that mirrors what he was saying in the first part of an answer given in the QandA section of his lecture. Does anyone know what Dr. Fung's thoughts are on excercise?

Begonia · Oct 1, 2017

Just found this press release about Newcastle diet (DIRECT study results) published 13th September 2017.

http://www.ncl.ac.uk/press/news/2017/09/type2diabetesisreversible/

AloeSvea · Oct 26, 2017

Exercise is about overall/heart health, isn't it? It's about fitness, which is measured in oxygen take up? And protective against the CVDs and MIs and strokes etc that is the number 1 thing that diabetics die of too early. And also about providing another avenue, if you like, to deal with excess blood glucose by shunting it into the muscle. Which is why you can have a lovely BG reading after walking, weight lifting, or weed-eating the garden. Muscles use the energy quickly when in use. Is my understanding.

Alexandra100 · Oct 27, 2017

Guzzler said:
Prof. Taylor's thoughts on excercise were interesting. I have lowered my bg and lost weight with zero excercise so I know that mirrors what he was saying in the first part of an answer given in the QandA section of his lecture. Does anyone know what Dr. Fung's thoughts are on excercise?

I love Dr Bernstein's take on exercise: do aerobic, do resistance training, and preferably do some sort of interval training / HIIT (though he doesn't call it that, as far as I know).

Brunneria · Oct 27, 2017

AloeSvea said:
or weed-eating the garden.

I have to ask... weed-eating? what kinds of weed are you growing?

ickihun · Oct 27, 2017

I'm not sure Dr Fung's stance on exercise fully but a bit irrelevant to me as cannot exercuse at mo, just walk in pain.
I watch occasional vids or books but ultimately your body may not do the same as they should it does or like me other metabolic problems interfer.
No size will fit all.

ringi · Oct 28, 2017

I think Dr Fung's stance on exercise is that exercise is good when people feel like doing it, but will not do much good unless diet is sorted out. I don't recall he saying much about exercise in any of his writings that I have read, however he does not tend to write about anything where most doctors would agree with his views on a subject....

Indy51 · Oct 28, 2017

Seems like most of the docs in the LCHF space adopt the mantra "You can't outrun a bad diet". They all seem to say that exercise is great for all sorts of metabolic/health reasons, but basically useless for weight loss - though can be helpful for weight maintenance.

ringi · Oct 28, 2017

Prof Roy Taylor says the same about exercise, but is no way "in the LCHF space".

AloeSvea · Oct 29, 2017

Brunneria said:
I have to ask... weed-eating? what kinds of weed are you growing?

. Are you just teasing me, or is it a dialect difference? . In Kiwiland and Australia (well, at least I think it is said in Australia as well, at least my Kiwi friend immigrants in Aus) call it weedeating. Weed trimming? Using a weed-trimmer? I should have said lawn mowing, but I like the weed.... trimmer as I can really feel it in my arm muscles.

I can see your point though - if it looked like I was advocating eating weeds .

Brunneria · Oct 29, 2017

haha! that's brilliant.
here in the UK (at least the bits I have lived in) we would
do some weeding
pull weeds
strim weeds with a strimmer
cut the grass
mow the lawn (if we were posh enough to have a lawn)

but I REALLY love the idea of weedeating.

(and I'm not straying into the field of what the American's call 'weed'

AloeSvea · Oct 29, 2017

Strimming? Goodness! It sounds very similar to something I discovered the meaning of looking at an 'How to avoid HIV' poster in a pub back in 1985 .

Lawns are not posh in NZ and Australia - I promise. One of the offshoots of colonisation. Lots of lawns .

Dr Jason Fung & Prof Roy Taylor both trying to mimic bariatric surgery ?

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