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Dr Jason Fung

Thank you all for the responses, really interesting. I have been reading about a hormone called ghrelin that can make you crave sugar (my addiction), and I shall be looking at this further. We have an interesting disease!!
 
nannoo_bird said:
Thank you, I shall read that in a minute, as I can't sleep due to neuropathy pains!! Tell me, how did you manage to wean yourself off carbs without committing mass murder?
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Here you are from the great man himself

How to wean yourselves off carbs - don't do it, go cold turkey!

 
nannoo_bird said:
Thank you all for the responses, really interesting. I have been reading about a hormone called ghrelin that can make you crave sugar (my addiction), and I shall be looking at this further. We have an interesting disease!!
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Do note that if you are on insulin and multiple medication, then you will need to approach carbs reduction with caution as there is significant risk of hypoglycemia.
 
kokhongw said:
Do note that if you are on insulin and multiple medication, then you will need to approach carbs reduction with caution as there is significant risk of hypoglycemia.
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So glad you mentioned that kokhongw. I asked on another thread how you would know when to reduce your medication which I know needs to be done carefullly.
 
nannoo_bird said:
I was recommended to watch a video by this Canadian doctor which I found fascinating. He suggests that giving insulin to Type 2 diabetics is wrong as many of them make enough insulin, it is just that our cells cannot use it properly. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
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@nannoo_bird

I have found Dr Fung amazingly frank and very clear thinking. One fact that no one will argue over is the 500lb bariatric surgery patient who two weeks post operation is then T2DM free but still weighing 470lbs. What that patient has done with the help of surgery is "Enforced surgical fasting"! Dr Fung posted a link to a study of such folks where bariatric surgery has 95% success ratio of ending T2DM. With the two published studies of Professor Taylor having 63% and 43% patient success ratios, there is a massive gap between the success of either method. I currently fall into the unsuccessful sector of Professor Taylor's ratios.

After diagnosis I went and lost a total of 66lbs but never lost the T2DM. I've often wondered was it the brutality of the 800Kcal/day ND was what caused the remission or was it overall weight loss. Taylor has always maintained it was overall weight loss. For me that hasn't made logical sense. Why then is the 470lbs guy from above T2DM free and I with 66lbs (25% weight loss) lost still suffering? No sense. T2DM starts (I think) with Insulin Resistance (IR). The "Enforced surgical fasting" (as Fung refers to it) is what gives remission to the surgical patient IMHO by attacking the IR.

I had been doing Intermittent Fasting for a long while to help lose the weight, then having read Dr Fung's material I've gone as much as I can into full fasting. I drink coffee in the mornings & plenty of fluids during the day. Lunch is a thin soup of vegetable broth mixed with chicken broths so about 30 calories / serving. I have that for lunch and dinner. I am early to bed because I don't want to be tempted into eating and I want to mimic as near as possible the post operative outcome of a bariatric surgery without the surgical complications. This is a work in progress. One big thing I've found is that I'm not experiencing major hunger pains. Quite the opposite in fact. As each day goes by I feel better and better. (up until the point of my expiry! LOL just kidding) I've a thread I've started and I'll up date that in a week or so. My longest fast so far has been 66 hours.

I hope that his knowledge helps all. If I've said something outrageous that offends anyone I apologize in advance.

LBB
 
Living-by-the-beach said:
@nannoo_bird

I have found Dr Fung amazingly frank and very clear thinking. One fact that no one will argue over is the 500lb bariatric surgery patient who two weeks post operation is then T2DM free but still weighing 470lbs. What that patient has done with the help of surgery is "Enforced surgical fasting"! Dr Fung posted a link to a study of such folks where bariatric surgery has 95% success ratio of ending T2DM. With the two published studies of Professor Taylor having 63% and 43% patient success ratios, there is a massive gap between the success of either method. I currently fall into the unsuccessful sector of Professor Taylor's ratios.

After diagnosis I went and lost a total of 66lbs but never lost the T2DM. I've often wondered was it the brutality of the 800Kcal/day ND was what caused the remission or was it overall weight loss. Taylor has always maintained it was overall weight loss. For me that hasn't made logical sense. Why then is the 470lbs guy from above T2DM free and I with 66lbs (25% weight loss) lost still suffering? No sense. T2DM starts (I think) with Insulin Resistance (IR). The "Enforced surgical fasting" (as Fung refers to it) is what gives remission to the surgical patient IMHO by attacking the IR.

I had been doing Intermittent Fasting for a long while to help lose the weight, then having read Dr Fung's material I've gone as much as I can into full fasting. I drink coffee in the mornings & plenty of fluids during the day. Lunch is a thin soup of vegetable broth mixed with chicken broths so about 30 calories / serving. I have that for lunch and dinner. I am early to bed because I don't want to be tempted into eating and I want to mimic as near as possible the post operative outcome of a bariatric surgery without the surgical complications. This is a work in progress. One big thing I've found is that I'm not experiencing major hunger pains. Quite the opposite in fact. As each day goes by I feel better and better. (up until the point of my expiry! LOL just kidding) I've a thread I've started and I'll up date that in a week or so. My longest fast so far has been 66 hours.

I hope that his knowledge helps all. If I've said something outrageous that offends anyone I apologize in advance.

LBB
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It does seem from anecdotal evidence on here, that aggressive weight loss producess different results to slow weight loss.
It seems odd Taylor came to the conclusions he did, as he appeared to change his answer after 'leading' questions, as he originally appeared to think mimicking surgery was the answer, with very reduced calories, but in the face of questioning, appeared to change the answer to weight ls being key, with no evidence to support that.
Unfortunately, many now take the Professor's answer as gospel, and appear to ignore the study.
 
SunnyExpat said:
It does seem from anecdotal evidence on here, that aggressive weight loss producess different results to slow weight loss.
It seems odd Taylor came to the conclusions he did, as he appeared to change his answer after 'leading' questions, as he originally appeared to think mimicking surgery was the answer, with very reduced calories, but in the face of questioning, appeared to change the answer to weight ls being key, with no evidence to support that.
Unfortunately, many now take the Professor's answer as gospel, and appear to ignore the study.
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@SunnyExpat

I've had email conversations with folks here on this blog who've followed ND religiously (and to its absolute core tenets) and ended up with just "Good control" but no reversal. I think some of the folks who followed ND got lucky and they cleared enough of their visceral fat to stop T2DM and the folks who followed the slow is steady weight loss brigade ended up as I have, of not losing enough visceral fat. I do know this to be a fact. I am sure there'll be more than one person who's done ND (or a modified ND) will come and chime in and confirm what I've experienced.

As Fung said of himself and his sub-specialty of Nephrology, "Nephrologists had the reputation of being a ‘thinkers’ specialty." Maybe that's why its taken me two years to figure out what I've explained in my last two postings here.

One could theorize that Professor Taylor may well have nailed about 85% of the cure for T2DM, but then maybe Fung has the last 15% of one way of reversal for T2DM

LBB
 
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Living-by-the-beach said:
@SunnyExpat

I've had email conversations with folks here on this who've followed ND religiously (and to its absolute core tenets) and ended up with just "Good control" but no reversal. I think some of the folks who followed ND got lucky and they cleared enough of their visceral fat to stop T2DM and the folks who followed the slow is steady weight loss brigade ended up as I have, of not losing enough visceral fat. I do know this to be a fact. I am sure there'll be more than one person who's done ND (or a modified ND) will come and chime in and confirm what I've experienced.

LBB
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I have a theory, the modified ND is usually modified to reduce carbs, as the amount of carbs in the shakes are regarded as excessive by many on here.
I did a version but kept the amount of carbs roughly in line with the shakes, (so 'high carb' to many), and can certainly enjoy far more carbs than many.
My theory is that the pancreas gets 'shut down' during low carb fasting, whereas during 'high carb' fasting, it is exercised, and so switches into 'repair' mode, as it's shouting for attention, rather than quietly ticking over in the background.
Maybe the same happens during low carb weight loss, and it simply gets overlooked.
One thing for sure though, it still requires much work to understand it.
 
SunnyExpat said:
I have a theory, the modified ND is usually modified to reduce carbs, as the amount of carbs in the shakes are regarded as excessive by many on here.
I did a version but kept the amount of carbs roughly in line with the shakes, (so 'high carb' to many), and can certainly enjoy far more carbs than many.
My theory is that the pancreas gets 'shut down' during low carb fasting, whereas during 'high carb' fasting, it is exercised, and so switches into 'repair' mode, as it's shouting for attention, rather than quietly ticking over in the background.
Maybe the same happens during low carb weight loss, and it simply gets overlooked.
One thing for sure though, it still requires much work to understand it.
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@SunnyExpat

I suspect your rationale maybe in error. High carbs turn into more glucose. That's what causing the IR. Its IR we should be fighting and not high glucose levels. If you're in a car accident and damage your head & have an open wound you'll have a headache and an open wound. High glucose is headache . It's the head wound that would need suturing. The paracetamol while needed is only for the headache and not the open wound.

In a previous era I was a professional navigator. Its always said when lost, go back to where you last knew where you were at. In this analogy we do know that bariatric surgery can be successful 95% of the time

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/11/151111172610.htm

So having read this piece here from Dr Fung

https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/bariatrics-surgically-enforced-fasting-t2d-6/

As he suggests why just not do the fasting without the surgery. There's no need to over think this. If everyone read his blog in its entirety we'd all enjoy better health. I say all of the above not to offend anyone but to be helpful of constructive thinking.

LBB
 
Living-by-the-beach said:
@SunnyExpat

I suspect your rationale maybe in error. High carbs turn into more glucose. That's what causing the IR. Its IR we should be fighting and not high glucose levels. If you're in a car accident and damage your head & have an open wound you'll have a headache and an open wound. High glucose is headache . It's the head wound that would need suturing. The paracetamol while needed is only for the headache and not the open wound.

In a previous era I was a professional navigator. Its always said when lost, go back to where you last knew where you were at. In this analogy we do know that bariatric surgery can be successful 95% of the time

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/11/151111172610.htm

So having read this piece here from Dr Fung

https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/bariatrics-surgically-enforced-fasting-t2d-6/

As he suggests why just not do the fasting without the surgery. There's no need to over think this. If everyone read his blog in its entirety we'd all enjoy better health. I say all of the above not to offend anyone but to be helpful of constructive thinking.

LBB
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You asked the question of those who have successfully completed a modified ND.
It is regretful you do not like the answer, but I wish you well in your quest to find both a method, and a result you are satisfied with, without you needing to overthink.
 
SunnyExpat said:
You asked the question of those who have successfully completed a modified ND.
It is regretful you do not like the answer, but I wish you well in your quest to find both a method, and a result you are satisfied with, without you needing to overthink.
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@SunnyExpat

I would never mean to offend you or your thinking. Its not a function of not liking your answer. I just suspect your thinking maybe faulty.
You said,

"My theory is that the pancreas gets 'shut down' during low carb fasting, whereas during 'high carb' fasting, it is exercised, and so switches into 'repair' mode, as it's shouting for attention, rather than quietly ticking over in the background."

If the pancreas was shut down during low carb fasting I'd think it would be then, that it may go into repair mode. Not the other way around does that make sense or have I mis-read your theory? . I'm not a doctor, & I don't pretend to understand all of the endocrine system. Taylor has always said its the visceral fats that are the issue

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/12/151201141231.htm

& that loosing that one gram fat is what will release you of this desperate disease.

LBB
 
Living-by-the-beach said:
@SunnyExpat

I would never mean to offend you or your thinking. Its not a function of not liking your answer. I just suspect your thinking maybe faulty.
You said,

"My theory is that the pancreas gets 'shut down' during low carb fasting, whereas during 'high carb' fasting, it is exercised, and so switches into 'repair' mode, as it's shouting for attention, rather than quietly ticking over in the background."

If the pancreas was shut down during low carb fasting I'd think it would be then, that it may go into repair mode. Not the other way around does that make sense or have I mis-read your theory? . I'm not a doctor, & I don't pretend to understand all of the endocrine system. Taylor has always said its the visceral fats that are the issue

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/12/151201141231.htm

& that loosing that one gram fat is what will release you of this desperate disease.

LBB
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His theories seem to have changed as time has gone by.
It's merely the anecdotal evidence on here suggests the original method produces results that are at odds to modified diets preferred by some here..
As I said, possibly our bodies repair organs being used as a priority, possibly the fact the pancreas is flushing insulin out of the islet cells helps to remove surplus fat that isn't removed if the cells are dormant.
I don't know, (possibly no one knows enough) to speculate, but the other clue may be that the bariatric surgery patients also are on 'carb rich' diet, as opposed to low carb.
So I would not be taking any risk by changing the methods.
The only reason I didn't do the shakes, was I used real food, as an aggressive weight loss program, with a classic methodology, ie low fat, but fortunately managed to unknowingly mimic the ND. I lost weight, and now eat sensibly, but maintain non diabetic hba1cs.
If I did it again, I would use shakes without question.
 
SunnyExpat said:
His theories seem to have changed as time has gone by.
It's merely the anecdotal evidence on here suggests the original method produces results that are at odds to modified diets preferred by some here..
As I said, possibly our bodies repair organs being used as a priority, possibly the fact the pancreas is flushing insulin out of the islet cells helps to remove surplus fat that isn't removed if the cells are dormant.
I don't know, (possibly no one knows enough) to speculate, but the other clue may be that the bariatric surgery patients also are on 'carb rich' diet, as opposed to low carb.
So I would not be taking any risk by changing the methods.
The only reason I didn't do the shakes, was I used real food, as an aggressive weight loss program, with a classic methodology, ie low fat, but fortunately managed to unknowingly mimic the ND. I lost weight, and now eat sensibly, but maintain non diabetic hba1cs.
If I did it again, I would use shakes without question.
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@SunnyExpat

I did exactly what you did. I ate real food. Just less of it and lots of exercise. Lots. Yet all the while, I sense I was like a mouse in a cage on that treadmill wheel, that we see mice run on. I'd eat lunch and then dinner, go workout like a fiend over at the gym and wake up the next morning a 110mg/dl FBG. (diabetic reading). Nothing would change. I've lost 50lbs at a minimum and as much as 66lbs at my lowest weight. I'm now 58lbs lighter than my worst weight.

Theories are going to change over time. In 2011 it was Taylor who presented his knowledge that 63% of the study participants were able to put T2DM into remission. The knowledge of the bariatric patients outcomes says we've all got a 1 in 20 chance of not reversing our T2DM. That there's a yawning gap of failed T2DM remission between 43% 63% (of Taylor's experience) and 95% is massive. As for Taylor changing his theories, what would you have him do as he discovers new information? That's why he may have changed the tone of the story of weight loss and T2DM reversal over time. No one so far has IMHO completely figured this stuff out. I sense though Fung and Taylor together have helped us all with great strides of new knowledge.

One doesn't need to go full time on fasting although many on Dr Fung's blog do report tales of going on intentional fasts of up to 2 + (or more) weeks. There is an official record of a fast of 382 days of a 27 year old from Scotland

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2495396/pdf/postmedj00315-0056.pdf

Dr Fung references it here.

https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/the-ancient-secret-of-weight-loss-fasting-part-8/

Once one is in remission then the occasional fast for 16-24 to maybe 36 hours is easily achieved. I am really happy that you've got your condition into remission. I hope to join you there soon. The one clever caveat of fasting is if you feel weird of funny, you can always come off the fast and eat some food and then start over again.

One final thing about this blog is as it about Dr Fung, I'd say his knowledge of T2DM is something to be savored and appreciated by us fellow diabetics. I know I am glad I've found the postings, he's done as they've cleared up a great deal of my thinking on the subject and I now have a real shot at remission..

Dr Fung has published a book about T2DM 4 weeks ago.

http://tinyurl.com/Obesity-Code


I've put the link in here as I think he's a fantastic doctor. You may find you want to read it..

LBB
 
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Fung is probably a fantastic doctor. And while I realise this thread started out discussing Fung, we appear to have gone completely off thread, as I don't reconcile Fung with the Newcastle Diet.
It's trying to fit a square peg into a round hole, and it doesn't seem to fit.
Which doesn't diminish Fung's work, I just wouldn't expect Taylor's results.
 
SunnyExpat said:
Fung is probably a fantastic doctor. And while I realise this thread started out discussing Fung, we appear to have gone completely off thread, as I don't reconcile Fung with the Newcastle Diet.
It's trying to fit a square peg into a round hole, and it doesn't seem to fit.
Which doesn't diminish Fung's work, I just wouldn't expect Taylor's results.
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I don't think we've really gone off thread. The thread is to cure ourselves of our diabetes. Anything in that direction is a positive. Talking about references, here's a reference from another doctor who's given an opinion on Dr Fung's new book up on Amazon.

http://tinyurl.com/Obesity-Code

By Catherine Shanahan, MD on February 17, 2016
Format: Paperback
I’m surprised nobody has mentioned this but Dr Jason Fung is a traditional medical doctor in Canada working in the system — where the government won't pay for a medical intervention if it isn't effective. He has helped his patients drop thousands of pounds with an unconventional approach. The book covers the reasons he has elected to take this controversial approach. His program, called intensive dietary management, helps people adapt a low carb diet and intermittent or (when appropriate and supervised) prolonged fasts. He knows what he's talking about when it comes to the connection between what you eat and what you weigh.

Dr Fung makes it clear that the calories in/ calories out model of weight management has proved to be a colossal failure, and explains why, covering the nuanced realities of hormones, fasting, carbohydrates, fats, sugars and sleep and the roles each plays in your health.

As a doctor myself specializing in weight loss, I too am deeply interested in the disconnect between calories consumed and body weight that seems to trap some people in a metabolic vicious cycle. So I find his focus on this topic fascinating. Particularly interesting are the arguments that lay out why we were wrong about the calories in calories out model and how human physiology seems to defy physics (but actually isn’t, as you’ll see).

Each chapter unfolds into a sensible, well researched, very well-reasoned and sometimes sobering discussion of a health topic.
Topics include:
▪ the heritability of (a tendency for) obesity
▪ The role of insulin in weight gain
▪ Benefits of fiber to gut health and how that translates to faster weight loss
▪ Probiotics—any reader interested in health should be familiar with this new field.
▪ The power of fasting (yes, fasting) and why it’s not so extreme

Dr Fung has tapped into something very important and no doubt the future of nutrition and health discussion is going to be centered around concepts found here in The Obesity Code
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LBB & If anyone asks I am not related to or any way influenced by professional or non professional relationships with Dr Fung. In fact I may treat my endocrinologist and neurologist to a copy of his book.
 
nannoo_bird said:
So glad you mentioned that kokhongw. I asked on another thread how you would know when to reduce your medication which I know needs to be done carefullly.
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I am afraid I have no experience to share on that as I opted to go straight into dietary changes upon diagnosis. It is best to discuss medication changes with qualified Dr that supports carbs reduction.
 
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