DRUG number 4 now

Osidge said:

After 17 years I have a good idea of how foods affect me. I have oats often and my HbA1c is always below 6 and, more often, around 5. I also have no complications. That, however, is just me and I appreciate how we are all different. I appreciate that my pancreas releases insulin in response to the gradual conversion of the oats (proper oats and not "instant porridge"). My HbA1c readings along with my lack of complications after 17 years indicate that what I do works for me.

By the way, @4ratbags I have always had access to testing strips at all the surgeries I have been registered with. I am also sold on the fact that we are all different.

Regards

Doug

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Hi Doug. We are all different indeed. And, I'm not sure about this - as this out of my realm of experience - but one thing I have noticed in the forum is that folks who are treating with food and activity alone are much more strident about the spiking affect of carbs and more intense about food generally than those on medication, me included. But indeed - this thread is about medication. And about whether or not to take medication considering the side effects, is my understanding. So maybe one of the reasons you can eat a carby food, albeit low GI, is because of the metformin? Higher in carbs than those on diet alone could safely eat? As I say, I am newly taking note of medication and levels in here in relation to what folks eat, so I really have no idea - but am wondering.

I for one was quite shocked at the level of medication being offered for someone who presented with, what to me is 'only' - an HBA1c of 54! In my own eyes that is an even 'gorgeously' low HBA1c level for which to apply tighter dietary control from, to get it lower. (Of course I think this, as I had to come down from 93.) (And I didn't really get the 'low' in low-carbing till relatively recently. Maths and counting has never been my thing, but I count the blooming things now.) Considering how many side effects @Robo42 is having - especially. You can say a lot of things about using food as your pharmacy - it doesn't give you side effects like muscle problems (which would really worry me - muscles are my friends!) And the stomach problems sound ghastly, to be honest.

But saying that I do realise medications have their place, and metformin can be wonderful - but at an HBA1c of 54? Really?

One way of looking at T2D is as an expression of carbohydrate intolerance - and Robo - you may just not have found your level of tolerance/intolerance yet (so yes, as you said in a post above - your low carbing was probably not low enough, for sure). Which brings us back to Doug's point about individual differences, with or without medication - and Robo's asking of himself - with or without medication? Hmmm.

Robo I agree that maybe your level of carbs has simply not been low enough. Do you actually count them on something like www.myfitnesspal.com? It's so easy to let carb creep in when you are no longer new to carb counting. Weighing my portions of veg is important as I can easily go over my daily carb limit by piling high the veggies if I'm not careful.

Gliclazide works by stimulating the pancreas to produce more insulin, so I would try to limit the use of this as it could mean that your beta cells get worn out more quickly, if you reduce carbs a little more you may find you don't need drugs. The decision is really up to you to choose whether drugs give you a better way of life or not.

I found that metformin only upset my tummy when I ate carbs with it. Maybe there is a particular carb which affects you personally. I don't find low GI carbs any different to others. A carb is as carb as far as my body is concerned. I just get the spike at a different time.

Oats most certainly do spike my BG's too. I have tried replacing the whole milk I used with part cream and part water, but there is still a spike. Maybe this is because I am not on any drugs and have to be stricter than those who take metformin etc.

Lastly, very well done on controlling your diabetes on diet only this far. I hope I can do as well as you.

Never had an oat that didn't spike me (since I started using a meter to check my bg levels), and very sad it is too. I love a bowl of porridge.

@DeejayR has a fab breakfast remedy involving whole oat groats that he soaks over night, mixes with other things, and is fine on, which presumably lowers the overall GI much lower than even the whole oats by themselves.

@ robo I hope you find a solution to this. Bringing in the heavy hitter drugs and leaving you with side effects isn't a decision that I would like. But then, you say you have been eating low GI for 10 years or so. That never worked for me, so I am delighted that it helped you for so long. I gess you have a decision to make - stick with the drugs and your normal way of eating, or try something different. They both have pros and cons, but I took the very low carb route, and am happy with it.

Would not go near oats if my life depended on it. Wouldn't want to put that to a vote, but I reckon I'd know the outcome

I guess I am fortunate then. The upside for me, as well as being able to eat something I like, is that in a recent piece of cardiac research that I took part in, cardiac MRIs and ultrasounds showed no evidence of plaques or thickening of the arteries. Despite having low HbA1c readings, my GP advised me to stay on Metformin because of its cardiac protective properties. Recent research is also looking at its ability to protect against certain cancers.

Doug

Osidge said:

I guess I am fortunate then. The upside for me, as well as being able to eat something I like, is that in a recent piece of cardiac research that I took part in, cardiac MRIs and ultrasounds showed no evidence of plaques or thickening of the arteries. Despite having low HbA1c readings, my GP advised me to stay on Metformin because of its cardiac protective properties. Recent research is also looking at its ability to protect against certain cancers.

Doug

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Lucky you! I'm not allowed metformin anymore, although I will ask again next time I get my bloods checked.

Osidge said:

@freddy2 can you provide the evidence that oats for breakfast spikes the blood of a lot of people with Type 2 diabetes? Interestingly, the Southport study had a central aim of weight loss and advised against a lot of calorific fat.

Regards

Doug

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Interestingly enough, I had porridge this morning, thought I would test after an hour and my read from this morning of 5.3 has gone up to 9.7! First time I have seen it go this high, I gather I shouldn't eat oats?

Normally the post prandial blood test would be done at 2 hours. My own experience is that the type of porridge is important.

Doug

Administrator said:

Oats seem to have 12g carbs/100g. It's enough to send some people's bloods up (it's quite often talked about on Facebook when we ask what people have eaten for breakfast)

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On the packet of oats I have in the cupboard it says 57 grams of carbs per 100 grams so 30 grams of oats would be 17 grams carbs.

See why *some* people @Administrator might want to avoid them. However it is not only the carb content but how quickly it converts to sugar that is an issue with spikes. For those who can eat oats, the soluble fibre in them is a dietary plus.

Doug

Administrator said:

I stand corrected. Can see why people would want to avoid oats!

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I think the difference may be cooked/wet and dry oats, I've been tricked a few times on this, also 100g isn't a serve, as as per your link, it's only 68 cal

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Robo42 said:

I have never known what my daily CARB intake is, guess have been lucky that by being good most of the time the odd potato, rice, pasta have been OK. But CARBS in morning have always peaked me, so only porridge or a low oat cereal some days, but eggs, mushrooms, fish and sausage being my main combinations of breakfast. The Dr likes Metformin as seems to be prescribed for a lot of prevention in the cardio area and possible diabetic effects, but now only on Dapagliflozin which am told clears out the blood sugar thu urine, but has no magical properties of metformin. Looks like a handle on CARB intake is the way forward.

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as you say a protein higher fat breakfast is a safer bet, and may allow not to increase your Dapagliflozin, as you aren't putting excess carbs through glucose, into the blood, to excrete through your kidneys. although the thread took a left turn, I hope it has helped overall.

Magsx1 said:

Interestingly enough, I had porridge this morning, thought I would test after an hour and my read from this morning of 5.3 has gone up to 9.7! First time I have seen it go this high, I gather I shouldn't eat oats?

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some and myself, try to keep the BG under diabetic and in normal range
Fasting blood sugar under 100 mg/dl (5.5 mmol/L)
One hour after meals under 140 mg/dl (7.8 mmol/L)
Two hours after meals under 120 mg/dl (6.6 mmol/L)


http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes/14045524.php

Magsx1 said:

Interestingly enough, I had porridge this morning, thought I would test after an hour and my read from this morning of 5.3 has gone up to 9.7! First time I have seen it go this high, I gather I shouldn't eat oats?

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I find it makes a difference on how I make it. I do not go as high with full fat milk compared to semi-skimmed or water. You could also try to reduce the quantity but you get to a point when it isnt worth eating

Osidge said:

@freddy2 can you provide the evidence that oats for breakfast spikes the blood of a lot of people with Type 2 diabetes? Interestingly, the Southport study had a central aim of weight loss and advised against a lot of calorific fat.

Regards

Doug

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I have seen many posts over the years on this forum where people have said porridge spikes them. I have a small quantity of oat-based muesli which is better than the 'stewed' oats in porridge.

Administrator said:

Correct - I googled the GI but it seems to be different wherever I look :s

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one of the reasons you are going to find differing opinions is because full strength coke is low GI in a list of foods I saw and to the point of being silly where sugar can be low GI. I'm afraid it seems a marketing ploy now.
http://davidgillespie.org/the-glycemic-index-has-passed-its-use-by-date/


glycemic load seems a better measure.
I found this link very good for carbs and uses GIndex etc in it's data. it says carbs can have a 5 min to 3 hour effect on BG.
https://healthonline.washington.edu/document/health_online/pdf/CarbCountingClassALL3_05.pdf