• Guest - w'd love to know what you think about the forum! Take the 2025 Survey »

effects of long term low sugars

Messages
3
Hi,

New user here :D Need info from those who are more up to date with diabetes than i.

what physical effects can long term high doses of insulin have on the body and mind?
and also, are there any effects of having prolonged BG levels which are low?

I've done some reading but the scientific wording gave me a headache :D
 
Hi

I think you may have posted this question in the wrong part of the forum as you put it in the Type 2 section and not many Type 2's use insulin. It would be better to put this in 'Ask a question' or the Type 1 section.

I'd try again with your question as I think it has been missed.
 
Hi caringdaughter,

Sorry nobody has answered this yet.

I think what you've asked is difficult to answer on the info provided. Can you give us a bit more detail? On whose behalf are you asking the question? (I could assume your mother but...) What type of diabetes do they have and for how long? What do you mean by 'low' blood sugar and 'prolonged'? How do they control their diabetes etc.

Are you talking about a body's own insulin production (endogenous) or injected insulin (exogenous) ?Everybody's dose of injected insulin varies, so what is high for someone might be very low for someone else. For example, low blood sugars can pose a serious risk for people with type one diabetes, risking coma and death. However the situation can be different for people with other forms.

If you can give a bit more context people might be able to help more easily.
 
Hi i am Type2 diabetic on Lantus and Humalog insulin plus 6 Metformin a day. My sugars are very erratic (between 2ish and 20ish) and suffer from Preritheral Neuropathy (losing sensation in feet owing to high sugars). Over a longish period if sugars are not kept reasonable this can happen. My first sign was my big toe felt, tingly, when i wiggled it, now both feet are numb. I guess low is better than higher as when you eat your sugar should rise a bit.
Between 4-8 would be a good target.
The eyesight can be affected too over the long term, usually you get a yearly eye check to see if any damage is occuring. If sugars are low I would reccomend a small can of proper Coke for a wee boost. Maybe a mini Mars bar if needed, depends what you call 'low'.
Extreme tiredness is another thing if sugars are not right, but bear in mind these are only my symptoms, your diabetic advisor will advise each individual. Just thought it might help seeing how it affects some people.
Good Luck
 
caringdaughter said:
what physical effects can long term high doses of insulin have on the body and mind?
and also, are there any effects of having prolonged BG levels which are low?
High doses of insulin in themselves don't harm body/mind - if you think about it, a non-diabetic eating lots of carbs will be experiencing a high 'dose' of insulin, that their body is producing. But a number of people have found that particular types of artificial insulin have caused them problems of various kinds. A search on here will find more info... (eg human insulins vs the old animal insulins, and side effects of Lantus)
YES there are lots of effects of having prolonged low BG levels. Most people on insulin who run lowish for a long time (and therefore keep having mild hypos) will find that their hypo warning symptoms disappear, which of course causes other problems (like collapsing without knowing you are going to, and all that brings with it). If you have a lot of hypos, particularly severe hypos, you will find your mind going into a fog for a while, and some studies have found that long-term this reduces IQ very slightly. (let me know if you want references). Personally, I have found that a severe hypo makes my brain sluggish and my memory less good for about 2-3 months afterwards.
 
A part from the decreased hypo awareness and its consequences I have heard that frequent hypo's have effect on the brain. The brain lacking glucose can effect memory and stuff like that.
 
I had a gp tell me that my brain's memory and concentration problems were due to hypo's on a long term basis, as he reckoned there was a fair bit of research done on it......however....I couldn't find much research at all on it via the interent when I googled it for research.
I have been diabetic 25+ years, type 1.
I don't know whether they hypo's have had anything to do with my brains capabilities, however I was also given a misdiagnosis at one time of pernicious anaemia as being contributing to the brain problems and finally I was last year diagnosed with fibromyalgia which can affect the brains thinking capapbilities... My brain has actually become much sharper in it's thinking since taking duloxitine which is a drug nowadays used for diabetic neuropathy and fibromyalgia.
I still have problems with short term memory, but my actual thining capabilities are sharp now...and this is the best I have been with my brain for a very, very, very long time....and the hypo's that I had previously haven't actually been wiped out of my body....so I'm not personally totally convinced that hypo's cause all brain functioniing problems, but personally I do believe that they can cause some....
 
As someone who has been on insulin for over 50 years, and who planned/taught diabetes modules to nurses, I can only tell you about my experiences or what I read/heard from Hospital Consultants.

For many years people on insulin were asked to keep their BS between 3 and 5 mmol/l which caused a lot of problems. I managed this but through what is now thought to be too low a levels, I lost my warning signs of hypoglycaemia. The only signs that I got were great weariness (putting one foot in front of another took great effort) and nausea, at this point my BS was 1.8 mmol/l or below. In order to bring awareness back, I had to live with levels of between 7 and 10 mmoll for 4 months. I now have awareness at about 3.4 mmol/l which is really too low.

With reference to brain function. The brain does not need insulin to take in glucose for energy, it can use glucose without insulin as can muscle cells, but what the brain does need is a constant supply of glucose. Lack of glucose for the brain means the brain cannot function properly while the BS is low. So when borderline - between 3 and 4 mmol/l this may affect people's ability to think, plan etc and certainly can affect mood. People describe different effects on mood, depression, bad temper, hysteria etc Below 3 mmol/l is dangerous and can lead to coma - so low BS MUST have an effect on brain function if you think about it.

Lack of brain function may also explain why some people have strange dreams/nightmares/illusions during severe hypoglycaemia. I once refused sugar in my coffee - "because that sugar was the wrong sort", luckily I found the "right sort" in a nearby office!!

So a low blood glucose definitely affects brain function, whether or not the brain cells can be permanently damaged is difficult to assess. It would require people having a base line brain scan, then ones at intervals every time they had a hypo. It would not be ethically sound to induce hypos to see the effect. The only other way to assess the effect is to take histories and ask people what their opinion is if they have had numerous hypos. All I know is that after a severe hypo, before people realise I had lost awareness, I lost the ability to remember names of places and people, including family members. I had a photographic memory before and the problems developed immediately afterwards. That happened in my 40s, I am now in my 60s, and the problem persists.

Incidentally, this can be a problem for people using insulin during exams and other times that require increased brain function. The brain uses up glucose at a rapid rate without utilising insulin - which can lead to a hypoglycaemic attack. Which is one of the reasons being a "good little diabetic" with perfect BS levels and HbA1c is so difficult.

So you need help to get your BS under control and to avoid hypoglycaemia. A diabetic nurse specialist, who has been educated in insulin prescribing (not all have) is what you need. It will not happen overnight that you become stable, it takes time, effort and frequent contact at first. You need to record insulin dosage, site of administration and what happened before hypos to help in detecting a pattern, if one exists.

I hope that helps a little, insulin therapy is not easy, do not let anyone tell you it is. I have found it easier since I retired as my days can be similar in times of eating, exercising etc. But for teenagers, people who work, parents bringing up a family etc it can be very very difficult as no day is the same.

Liz
 
Really interesting Liz thankyou...reading your posting has been really helpful to me..even though I too have had hypo's etc for 25 + years...thanks...
 
Some people on this thread feel that they have developed cognitive/memory problems due to hypos. I've also read of others elsewhere that say the same.
Certainly there are immediate effects, because as the previous poster says the brain needs glucose to function.
Longterm though most of the recent evidence suggests though that there isn't necessarily a link between frequent severe hypos and brain function.

There was a very large study of people with type 1 diabetes, the DCCT.
They tested people at 6.5 years after the study and found no association between those that had had recurrent severe hypoglycaemia and cognitive function. A study with a 10 year follow up in Sweden also supported this. There were at tthat time however, some much smaller studies that suggested that frequent severe hypos could cause a moderate decline by the time people reached middle age..
After another 18 years,the DCCT researchers retested 85% of the people from the original DCCT There was still no association (at least in the tests they did) in either those who were adults in the original trials or those who were adolescents. Another recent meta analysis (when they look at the results of lots of small trials) also had negative conclusions.


The DCCT follow up did find a very slight asociation between hyperglycemia (high glucose levels) and cognitive function . Those with higher average Hb A1c had a slower response in psycho motor tasks, (they might have tested hand/arm steadiness, reaction times , finger dexterity etc) There is a theory that this type of problem may be caused by damage caused by high glucose levels to the small blood vessels.
http://www.springerlink.com/content/hhh ... ltext.html
In T2 researchers have also that people with persistently high glucose levels can have lowered performance on some tasks of memory, learning, and executive function.

Unfortunately recurrent severe hypoglycaemia in young children may be more problematic as the brain is still developing.. one of the reasons that very low glucose targets are avoided.
http://care.diabetesjournals.org/conten ... 1945.short
http://jcn.sagepub.com/content/early/20 ... 0.abstract
http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org/co ... 9/1/4.full


If someone has a prolonged coma due to a hypo then that can also have a severe effect on brain function.
 
The trouble with the study you report, phoenix, is that they did not distinguish between those who went into hypoglycaemic coma and those that did not. They could not deliberately induce coma in people, it would be unethical.

However there is research that demonstrates impaired cognitive function in people following severe hypoglycaemia and coma. This difficulty with brain function is due to a metabolic process that occurs during reperfusion (while the brain cells take up glucose after a hypo).

Hypoglycemia commonly causes brain fuel deprivation, resulting in functional brain failure, which can be corrected by raising plasma glucose concentrations. Rarely, profound hypoglycemia causes brain death that is not the result of fuel deprivation per se. In this issue of the JCI, Suh and colleagues use cell culture and in vivo rodent studies of glucose deprivation and marked hypoglycemia and provide evidence that hypoglycemic brain neuronal death is in fact increased by neuronal NADPH oxidase activation during glucose reperfusion (see the related article beginning on page 910). This finding suggests that, at least in the setting of profound hypoglycemia, therapeutic hyperglycemia should be avoided. http://www.jci.org/articles/view/31669

There is also the research that show as people age, those on long term insulin have decreased cognitive function when compared to a control group. his is an ongoing study, as they ahve yet to ascertain the reasons for the results.

How Diabetes May Be Linked to Mental Decline - Studies

Over a four-year period, Harvard Medical School researchers tested the memory and mental function of 2,300 women, 70 to 78 years old. Women without diabetes were more than twice as likely to score better than those with diabetes. Also, the longer a woman had diabetes, the more likely she would score poorly on the tests. "Based on calculations within the women in our study, we found that having diabetes was equivalent to aging 4 years in terms of scores," Dr. Francine Grodstein and her colleagues concluded. 10

In a multiethnic, multicenter study of vascular disease in more than 10,000 people, cognitive test scores were compared six years apart. Diabetes was associated with greater cognitive decline in participants aged 40 to 70 years old, (while high blood pressure was associated with greater cognitive decline only in those older than 58).

"While the participants in the study may not have noticed any decline in their mental ability, the decline was statistically significant," says David Knopman, M.D., a Mayo Clinic neurologist and the senior author of the study. "The results point to the fact that there are things some people may be able to do during middle age to help preserve our mental abilities later in life." 11

http://www.fi.edu/learn/brain/carbs.html

Liz
 
onlytwintip said:
2-3 months?! How much of a severe hypo is that?? Sounds a bit extreme and hard to measure...
I didn't mean I was hypo for 2-3 months! I mean I had brainfog for that time. Nobody on the outside would have noticed any difference, but I know how quickly my brain works, and it wasn't at its best. It feels fine now.
But you are right, things like that are very subjective and hard to measure, which is why it's very hard for Science (with a capital S) to say things like this happen.
 
Liz,
I agree about the potential for a prolonged profound hypo to cause permanent damage and mentioned this in my post. This happens sometimes, the effects can be devastating but are thankfully rare. The first example you give is about the possible mechanisms for neronal death in this situation.

I think it that the evidence from the DCCT covered the circumstances that many people with T1 find themselves in (although severe hypo was defined as needing assistance).

Your examples of cognitive decline though are about people with diabetes, not specifically about hypoglycaemia.
The research by Grodstein concerned T2 women and women who on the whole were not taking any hypoglycemic medications .
'Few diabetic women were pharmacologically treated (n 5 31), but those taking medication had scores similar to those of women without diabetes.'...'Longer duration of diabetes may be associated with poorer scores, but hypoglycemic therapy may ameliorate scores.'
http://care.diabetesjournals.org/conten ... 0.full.pdf
The second example does not differentiate beween T 1 and 2 (suspect most of the subjects were T2) and concluded
'Hypertension and diabetes mellitus were positively associated with cognitive decline over 6 years in this late middle-aged population. Interventions aimed at hypertension or diabetes that begin before age 60 might lessen the burden of cognitive impairment in later life' .
http://www.neurology.org/content/56/1/42.full
Both examples are I think are more about hyperglycemia. and the damage it causes to the vascular sustem.
Of course pragmatically we need to try and avoid too many examples of either extreme .. hypo or hyper.
 
Back
Top