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Sable_Jan
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We can uphold human rights by ourselves. We don't need to be told how, why & when by some unwieldy conglomerate, con being the operative word in most situations
We can uphold human rights by ourselves. We don't need to be told how, why & when by some unwieldy conglomerate, con being the operative word in most situationsThe 'interference' of upholding human rights is a GOOD thing.That kind of interference I like.
Hmmm. That really depends on which party is in power once an exit take place...Absolutely, they'll be tailored to fit our economy, the size and style of our businesses, demographic, not a "one size fits all"
Interesting you should say this. Why is the European Convention on Human Rights so bad? Especially as it was essentially Churchill's idea at the end of the second world war that the British played a huge part in drafting (notably a Conservative MP who chaired the Council of Ministers) in 1949? And is based on the Magna Carta and 1689 Bill of Rights?We can uphold human rights by ourselves. We don't need to be told how, why & when by some unwieldy conglomerate, con being the operative word in most situations
Having re-read the posts on the thread, I think it is rather unfair to accuse everyone who has posted for 'Leave' of being racist, corrupt and dishonest just because they have an opposite opinion to you.I have no desire to identify with, or support, the undercurrents of xenophobia, racism, defensiveness and venal self interest that prevail amongst the LEAVE arguments.
Having re-read the posts on the thread, I think it is rather unfair to accuse everyone who has posted for 'Leave' of being racist, corrupt and dishonest just because they have an opposite opinion to you.
I am glad you have made a decision. You wrote 'prevailing undercurrents' that means you read it in a certain way. I didn't 'read' them in the same way perhaps. You are still insinuating that you 'read' LEAVE posts to contain racism, prejudice, and 'venal' (ie. corrupt, dishonest, unprincipled) views - I find that rather unfair.I did not say that everyone who has posted for LEAVE is rascist, corrupt or dishonest.
I said that there were prevailing undercurrents of xenophobia, rascism, defensiveness and venal self interest.
And, for your information, when I started reading this thread I was entirely undecided about STAY or LEAVE.
The LEAVErs posts have convinced me to disagree with them.
If you think Leaving would cause the UK to take responsibility for our own mistakes then you are an incredibly optimistic and dare I say it, naive, person.
Instead of the EU, the trickle down racism that stems from the Leave campaign will become the route of all our ills. Not stuff that the UK does. A classic example is the pressure on health services argument. 14.1 million GP appointments per year are not turned up to in the UK, and our GP numbers are falling as a result of UK Governmental polices, meanwhile, 5.6 million outpatients appointments were missed, and yet we keep hearing that the issues with access to health services are down to growing numbers of immigrants.
Likewise, with regard to social housing, there is a perception that Eastern European immigrants are pushed to the top of the social housing ladder ahead of UK locals. The numbers simply don't bear that out. The reality is that we don't have that much social housing as a result of successive Labour and Conservative policies. But that is our fault and our responsibility. Just shutting out the EU is not going to change the perception that it's immigrants causing the issue, and the leave campaign mantra has, if anything, made that worse.
We're not very good at taking responsibility for our own failings.
I am glad you have made a decision. You wrote 'prevailing undercurrents' that means you read it in a certain way. I didn't 'read' them in the same way perhaps. You are still insinuating that you 'read' LEAVE posts to contain racism, prejudice, and 'venal' (ie. corrupt, dishonest, unprincipled) views - I find that rather unfair.
As I mentioned earlier Lyn, I didn't state you are naive to think we could do better outside the EU.You said I am naive to think we could do better outside of the EU, to be honest I don't think we can until we get rid of the self self self culture which has built up in so many peoples lives
If you read my post, I was commenting that much of the perception for many Leavers is that immigration is the reason for NHS issues and social housing issues, when the reality is that this simply isn't the case.You can not just blame migrants for not turning up at GP appointments most of them would not be registered at a GP surgery in the first place, but if they are ill they may well use A&E as a first step.
Yes, but the EEC was a much different platform than the current EU.Look at UK when we originally joined we were hardly rolling in money and jobs, much the same as the other countries, the whole idea was to share and support. The whole system was Europe would work better if it was more like the USA with a federal government and each state runs its own authority. These poorer countries would benefit from skills from other countries to help run them better and become stronger.
Poland and Albania were allies in WWII because they were invaded by Germany and Italy in 1939. Afterwards I think we probably had our own problems to deal with.It really hacks me off when we run down people from Poland, Albanian etc, when during WWII they were on the allies side, but we forgot they were our friends we sh*t on them after the war.
If you dislike it so much, why do you stay?After visiting various European countries I'm surprised any one wants to come to this country, it is dirty and chavy and I can see why so many people actually leave.
Not saying there's anything bad about it, just that we can uphold the same principles just as well as an individual country, classing GB as a whole, as we can as a member of the EUInteresting you should say this. Why is the European Convention on Human Rights so bad? Especially as it was essentially Churchill's idea at the end of the second world war that the British played a huge part in drafting (notably a Conservative MP who chaired the Council of Ministers) in 1949? And is based on the Magna Carta and 1689 Bill of Rights?
EXACTLY, thanks youHaving re-read the posts on the thread, I think it is rather unfair to accuse everyone who has posted for 'Leave' of being racist, corrupt and dishonest just because they have an opposite opinion to you.
The ECHR isn't an EU treaty. We signed up to it in 1949!Not saying there's anything bad about it, just that we can uphold the same principles just as well as an individual country, classing GB as a whole, as we can as a member of the EU
100% agree with you. You have said just what I was thinkingI am glad you have made a decision. You wrote 'prevailing undercurrents' that means you read it in a certain way. I didn't 'read' them in the same way perhaps. You are still insinuating that you 'read' LEAVE posts to contain racism, prejudice, and 'venal' (ie. corrupt, dishonest, unprincipled) views - I find that rather unfair.
How can you guarantee that remaining in the EU will improve the lives of everyone in the UK?Unless you are completely sure that leaving the EU will improve the lives of everyone in the UK then you must vote remain.
But the EU knew we were having a referendum and Cameron went to them to discuss our concerns - he came back with next to nothing. It feels as though our issues have been addressed and cannot be improved - so perhaps it is time to leave?these are peripheral to the intent of the EU; which is harmonising the interests of the 28 member states, of joining together to improve the lives of European citizens. That intent is what we are voting on. The intention is not and never has been to be sclerotic, wasteful or bureaucratic; so to vote out because of those things is not to address the core issue. Those things have to be addressed and have to be improved. Leaving will not do that.
And I think therein lies the rub. I'm not unhappy with what we have and what came back from that negotiation. So while your issues may not have been addressed, I don't have anything outstanding, and that's why, whatever the result of this vote, there are going to be about 30mn unhappy people.It feels as though our issues have been addressed and cannot be improved
So there will be no London weighting in all the decisions we make in the future... little evidence of that now...Absolutely, they'll be tailored to fit our economy, the size and style of our businesses, demographic, not a "one size fits all"
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