Fat loss to remission

Beating-My-Betes

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The evidence pure and simply is raised blood glucose levels, ie it's not where it's supposed to be. Without Insulin resistance it would be within the cells.
This doesn't address anything I've asked you, nor does it stand as evidence for any of your claims.
 

coby

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As a "nutrition geek" one would have thought you might have a bit more intellectual curiosity about where the excess calories went.

I suspect your brain thought it was consuming more calories, but actually wasn't. That and an increase in expenditure some of which probably came from from protein digestion put you in a technical deficit.

Agreed on the control - low carb is proven to decrease ghrelin and thus hunger, plus increase satiety so you feel full faster and longer. Overall a win.
Well I certainly wholly agree with this last paragraph!
I've forgotten what hunger pangs are since being on an extremely low carb diet and intermitten meals!
 
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aris

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126
Type of diabetes
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I'm not threatened by your statement because I know the truth. The calories in/calories out method only works when bodies work well.

Interesting - so you reason that for non-diabetics CICO works - but for diabetics, it doesn't and diabetics can't lose weight in a calorie deficit?

I guess if I ate 3000+ calories a day, even keto calories, I may gain weight. After many years of calorie counting though, I don't have a huge appetite. But if I have 1500 calories of mixed carbs, fat and protein I gain weight. Fact. With 1500 calories of low carb food I don't gain weight. Fact.
In a sample of one - yourself - it really doesn't matter what anyone (including I) think. You are losing the weight you want and getting the result you want. The facts are correct - for you.
You need to understand what it has been like for people like @Outlier and me. I had years of doctors and nurses telling me to lose weight, but the Eatwell Plate combined with calorie counting didn't work. Adding a 2 mile walk every day didn't help either. When I told the HCPs this they accused me of cheating, lying and forgetting I had snacks. I knew the truth. I was weighing food and calculating calories with the help of 3 calorie counting books. No PCs back then, no smart phones, just scales, pen, paper and calculator. A few years back my GP was training for a marathon. I regularly met him when I was about a mile from home on my 2 mile walk. He stopped telling me to get more exercise after that.

When I told my nurse that I realised drinks with artificial sweeteners actually made me gain weight long term, the nurse said with a knowing look 'that's because you think you have done well to save calories and compensate by eating more'.
Wrong, I weighed and counted every calorie.

So I struggled on for years, eating less and less and moving more. Eventually I got ill, catching every virus going and getting ever fatter, until that bout of flu in 2007 when I realised the madness of what I was doing.

I then ate as much as I wanted of good nutritious food, until I stumbled on the idea of low carbing. Around a year or so after that I found this forum...and found I wasn't the only one for whom calorie counting didn't work.

So you see, I am well used to people saying I must have cheated or counted calories wrong, it's just irritating when fellow diabetics don't believe me.

But hey when the famine happens I will be the last one standing as my metabolism is so good at running on just a little fuel.

I had a similar situation. Lost about 30kg using pure CICO (just for reference, i'm 6'4") - but then the weight loss stopped. I was on a 500-1000 kcal a day deficit. But the weight loss stopped. As some people commonly suggest - my metabolism may have "slowed down". I had to check - so I went into London to a clinic to have my RMR professionally tested. This test is done while in a rested and fasted state, you lie down comfortable on a bed and put a face mask on you to measure all your CO2 output (watch the video I posted above so you can see the relevance of this). This is a similar test they do on athletes called the VO2 Max, except in that case they measure CO2 while pushing the athlete to their maximum endurance (usually on a treadmill or stationary bicycle).

In the end - my RMR was roughly 2000 calories a day. I couldn't believe it - it had to be wrong - so I complained and they did the test for me again some weeks later. Came up the same - 2000 calories. I was flabbergasted. How could I not be losing weight? I decided to double down on the diet and track a bit better. In the end, I was indeed getting slack with my calorie counting. I had been doing it for over a year, and just wasn't paying as much attention. I started losing weight again, until I went off the wagon, stopped tracking in MyFitnessPal - and gained it back.

Adherence is everything when it comes to diet!

Well, that's my story. This all happened before the T2D diagnosis.
 

zand

Master
Messages
10,804
Type of diabetes
Type 2
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Interesting - so you reason that for non-diabetics CICO works - but for diabetics, it doesn't and diabetics can't lose weight in a calorie deficit?


In a sample of one - yourself - it really doesn't matter what anyone (including I) think. You are losing the weight you want and getting the result you want. The facts are correct - for you.


I had a similar situation. Lost about 30kg using pure CICO (just for reference, i'm 6'4") - but then the weight loss stopped. I was on a 500-1000 kcal a day deficit. But the weight loss stopped. As some people commonly suggest - my metabolism may have "slowed down". I had to check - so I went into London to a clinic to have my RMR professionally tested. This test is done while in a rested and fasted state, you lie down comfortable on a bed and put a face mask on you to measure all your CO2 output (watch the video I posted above so you can see the relevance of this). This is a similar test they do on athletes called the VO2 Max, except in that case they measure CO2 while pushing the athlete to their maximum endurance (usually on a treadmill or stationary bicycle).

In the end - my RMR was roughly 2000 calories a day. I couldn't believe it - it had to be wrong - so I complained and they did the test for me again some weeks later. Came up the same - 2000 calories. I was flabbergasted. How could I not be losing weight? I decided to double down on the diet and track a bit better. In the end, I was indeed getting slack with my calorie counting. I had been doing it for over a year, and just wasn't paying as much attention. I started losing weight again, until I went off the wagon, stopped tracking in MyFitnessPal - and gained it back.

Adherence is everything when it comes to diet!

Well, that's my story. This all happened before the T2D diagnosis.
Oh I see. You yourself were slack in calorie counting so you assume I and others were too.

Your situation was nothing like mine. I was gaining weight on ever decreasing calories.

Let's look at the calorie deficit argument in another way.
I agree if you consume too many calories and aren't in deficit you won't lose weight. However
where those calories come from is important to T2s. I can be in deficit on low carb and keto and lose weight. I can be in the same deficit on a mixed diet including carbs and not lose weight, in fact I often gain whilst technically in deficit if I have too many carbs. This is why I say CICO often doesn't work for T2s, it's more complicated than simply being in deficit.

Adherence is important when it comes to diet but sometimes it is important to mix things around a bit to stop your body adjusting to the regime and refusing to play ball.
 

aris

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Messages
126
Type of diabetes
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Tablets (oral)
Oh I see. You yourself were slack in calorie counting so you assume I and others were too.

No, I took the bulls by the horn and decided to find out what was going on both in the calories OUT situation (testing my RMR), and the calories IN (doubling down on the logging).

I assumed the calories in was OK - but it wasn't. In a way I was pleased my RMR was where it should be - it would suck if it had gone down. Note that there can be huge variations in published calories, particularly of fresh food. Can be like 10-20% different.

Your situation was nothing like mine. I was gaining weight on ever decreasing calories.

How is that possible - where did your body get the energy from to create more mass while feeding it less? Are you even sure that the weight you were gaining was fat? Could it have been water retention? Not saying it was - but possible. I mean, if you were a plant, you could create mass from the sun, water and CO2. But you aren't (unless your name isn't Robert by any chance?)
:)

Let's look at the calorie deficit argument in another way.
I agree if you consume too many calories and aren't in deficit you won't lose weight.

OK! We're getting somewhere.

However where those calories come from is important to T2s. I can be in deficit on low carb and keto and lose weight. I can be in the same deficit on a mixed diet including carbs and not lose weight, in fact I often gain whilst technically in deficit if I have too many carbs. This is why I say CICO often doesn't work for T2s, it's more complicated than simply being in deficit.

Adherence is important when it comes to diet but sometimes it is important to mix things around a bit to stop your body adjusting to the regime and refusing to play ball.
I'd say the calories are important from a blood glucose POV - but to lose weight - technically it is less important. I say less because protein takes 30% of the input calories just to digest - but I put that in the calories-out column. Even on a CICO diet, it is recommended to eat plenty of protein for this reason and satiety.

Again - I can't see how someone can actually gain weight when they are in an energy deficit.
 

AloeSvea

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@aris - have you checked out the magnificent Volek and Phinney's LCHF books? Full of science on the processes you will enjoy, I think. One has a nutriton/system focus, the other on sports science. 'The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living' and 'The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance'. There are heaps of support vids on youtube too...
 

zand

Master
Messages
10,804
Type of diabetes
Type 2
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Again - I can't see how someone can actually gain weight when they are in an energy deficit.
Unfortunately any diabetic who isn't T1 or T1.5 is generally labelled T2, so those labelled as T2 may not be a classic T2 and therefore won't necessarily have experienced what I have.

I am a classic type 2. I had insulin resistance for many years before T2 diagnosis. Insulin is a fat building hormone. Insulin resistance stops the insulin being used effectively so the pancreas pumps out more. T2 is only diagnosed when the pancreas can't keep up and BGs start to go up.
The media gives the impression that being fat causes T2, in fact it's the other way round, IR (T2) causes someone to put on weight as more and more insulin is produced to cope with carb intake. That's how I gained weight on a technical calorie deficit. The carbs in my diet required alot of insulin which only made the problem worse. I wish I had known this 30+ years ago.
 
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aris

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Messages
126
Type of diabetes
Treatment type
Tablets (oral)
Unfortunately any diabetic who isn't T1 or T1.5 is generally labelled T2, so those labelled as T2 may not be a classic T2 and therefore won't necessarily have experienced what I have.

I am a classic type 2. I had insulin resistance for many years before T2 diagnosis. Insulin is a fat building hormone. Insulin resistance stops the insulin being used effectively so the pancreas pumps out more. T2 is only diagnosed when the pancreas can't keep up and BGs start to go up.
The media gives the impression that being fat causes T2, in fact it's the other way round, IR (T2) causes someone to put on weight as more and more insulin is produced to cope with carb intake. That's how I gained weight on a technical calorie deficit. The carbs in my diet required alot of insulin which only made the problem worse. I wish I had known this 30+ years ago.
Insulin doesn't explain how you gain mass on a calorie deficit. Where does the energy required to create that mass come from?
 

zand

Master
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Oh for goodness sake.
As I've said earlier, I can lose weight on 1500 cals on keto, therefore 1500 cals is below my daily requirement. Yet if those 1500 cals are mixed cals, including carbs, I gain weight. It didn't make sense to me either that's why I continued cutting calories for so long. Read Volek and Finney and Jason Fung. I'm out of this thread now. It's too distressing for me. I don't need to explain it. I lived it.
 
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aris

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In the end it is the final result that matters to you. It sounds like keto helped you properly keep calories under your TDEE without counting. I think this is one of the biggest benefits of low carb way of eating. Tracking is tedious and eventually when you stop, it stops working.

Humans cannot break the laws of thermodynamics.
 

zand

Master
Messages
10,804
Type of diabetes
Type 2
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In the end it is the final result that matters to you. It sounds like keto helped you properly keep calories under your TDEE without counting. I think this is one of the biggest benefits of low carb way of eating. Tracking is tedious and eventually when you stop, it stops working.

Humans cannot break the laws of thermodynamics.
Robots cannot break the laws of thermodynamics. Humans are much more complicated than that. There is none so blind as those who will not see.
 

aris

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Type of diabetes
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Robots cannot break the laws of thermodynamics. Humans are much more complicated than that. There is none so blind as those who will not see.
I'm open to debate and learning something new. Please point me to some peer reviewed evidence which shows that humans break the laws of thermodynamics.

I will concede that humans are much more complicated - but the basic premise of calories in / calories out remains. The complicated part is calculating the calories in and calories out.
 

aris

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Fortunately, even without.a huge deficit we can create enough of a buffer to account for the variables that not being a bomb calorimeter introduces.
In other words, it is easier to keep a calorie deficit with a low carb diet. Agree completely.
 

zand

Master
Messages
10,804
Type of diabetes
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In other words, it is easier to keep a calorie deficit with a low carb diet. Agree completely.
It is also easier to keep a calorie deficit with a high carb low fat diet as it's harder to overeat on carbs if you have very little fat.
 
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Beating-My-Betes

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704
In other words, it is easier to keep a calorie deficit with a low carb diet. Agree completely.
Not necessarily. If you're someone who finds low-carb/keto satiating then yes. I don't. Fortunately, satiety isn't just a hormonal and/or protein issue.
 

aris

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Oh dear, more assumptions that your way is the only way. It is also easier to keep a calorie deficit with a high carb low fat diet as it's harder to overeat on carbs if you have very little fat.
Not necessarily. If you're someone who finds low-carb/keto satiating then yes. I don't. Fortunately, satiety isn't just a hormonal and/or protein issue.
I've not heard this before - but if it works for someone to keep a deficit - then go for it. Probably ideal for vegans.
 

aris

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Here is one I recalled from a while ago. Man loses 30lbs eating junk food. Twinkies and other american sugar/fat/carb laden foods:

 

ajbod

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The simple fact is, we all vary by so much, that the "rules" cannot always work. We've all from our own experiences, attained weight loss and reduced Blood sugars, by various different means that worked for US as individuals, often contrary to the perceived wisdom of science. No one way is right or wrong. It is only right if it works for US, it may well fail for others, but nobody can dispute it, as they haven't experienced it.
 
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Beating-My-Betes

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I've not heard this before - but if it works for someone to keep a deficit - then go for it. Probably ideal for vegans.
Our stomachs are lined with stretch receptors which expand when we are full. Eating larger amounts of bulkier, low-calorie density foods can help with the expansion and stretching. The work of Barbara Rolls relating to volumetrics expounds on this idea of eating low-clorie density foods.

This style of eating is naturally where low-fat, high-carb, wholefoods vegans land, as the foods geerally consumed are low enough in calories to allow for a lot of bulk to be consumed. That aspect of satiety is why many find success effortlessly on such a WOE.
 
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