Fatty liver and fast weight loss.

[Kentoldlady1]

Hello all. Bit confused about why losing weight too quickly can lead to a fatty liver.
I am doing the 8 week blood sugar thing and finding it very helpful. Have lost quite a bit of weight, much more than 2lbs a week. But have been reading that a very quick loss can make a fatty liver even fatter!!

Could not really find any science to back up this assertion, but it is all over the articles on fatty liver

I am assuming that most/all t2ds have a fatty liver so does that mean that by trying to do a fast weight loss we are making our livers worse?

Thank you all.

Oops. Meant to post this in ask a question!!!

 

[Indy51]

Doesn't match at all the experiences of people doing the Newcastle Diet - backed up by the MRI measurements that Prof Taylor's team took of both liver and pancreas. I think it's another BS story made up by "experts" in diabetes. The stuff they claim is way out of date, yet they still trot it out as if it's gospel.

 

[bulkbiker]

Hello all. Bit confused about why losing weight too quickly can lead to a fatty liver.
I am doing the 8 week blood sugar thing and finding it very helpful. Have lost quite a bit of weight, much more than 2lbs a week. But have been reading that a very quick loss can make a fatty liver even fatter!!

Could not really find any science to back up this assertion, but it is all over the articles on fatty liver

I am assuming that most/all t2ds have a fatty liver so does that mean that by trying to do a fast weight loss we are making our livers worse?

Thank you all.

Oops. Meant to post this in ask a question!!!

Sounds like a load of fatty liver cobblers to me..

 

[Freema]

Never heard one could get fatty liver from loosing weight rapidly , I Think What is important is the long term eating style especially after the weight loss ; that one does get adequate amount of protein daily like 0.8 gram Pro kg bodyweight. And not celebrate weightloss by binging in carbs afterwards .
Some live a yoyo lifestyle where rapid banting is shifted onto very unhealty eating pattern ; so if suddenly eating loads of foods and carbs that might force the liver to store excess fat ... only guessing where the myth originated from

 

[LittleGreyCat]

@Kentoldlady1 As @Indy51 says the Newcastle Diet is specifically targeted at the fatty liver to dramatically reduce the size so that the bariatric surgeon can actually find the stomach instead of wading through a morass of liver.

Oh, and congratulations on being overweight!

 

[Oldvatr]

Never heard one could get fatty liver from loosing weight rapidly , I Think What is important is the long term eating style especially after the weight loss ; that one does get adequate amount of protein daily like 0.8 gram Pro kg bodyweight. And not celebrate weightloss by binging in carbs afterwards .
Some live a yoyo lifestyle where rapid banting is shifted onto very unhealty eating pattern ; so if suddenly eating loads of foods and carbs that might force the liver to store excess fat ... only guessing where the myth originated from

banting = following a Low Carb diet
IMO the Banting diet was intended to be a ketogenic (fat burning) diet, hence when successfully run in keto mode should reduce fatty livers (in theory at least). To get keto active, it requires a low intake of carbs, and a restricted protein intake too: both are necessary - the High Fat part of LCHF is to provide energy that will not raise bgl thus negating LC efforts This helps to prevent muscle loss through scavenging. BUT(big Butt) if the carb intake is above the keto trigger, or the proteins are still too high, then the resulting rise in bgl prevents keto, so fat burning stops, and fat gets put on again . This can be counteracted through exercise and muscle building, which as we know requires significant effort to do.

So a weight loss diet can IMO give rise to worsening NAFLD if it is not properly carried out. It seems most commercial diets provide s quick flush, but leave the person at loss on how to maintain the new weight. Newcastle is no different in this respect, and it is important to devise a plan for ongoing maintenance. This is a well known effect of a calorie restricted diet leading to yo-yo weight. I find personally that the LCHF diet has given me a very stable weight at around 10.5 stone, which is a good value for me, Not sure about how it has affected any NAFLD in me, since this is not being monitored, but there again, I am not running a strict diet so not always in keto mode. I am using Intermittent Fasting to assist in that respect.

 

[Kentoldlady1]

Hello and thanks for replies.
I also have found no reasons for the assertion, but there is a lot out there to say there is a real connection.

https://www.researchgate.net/post/Does_acute_weight_loss_cause_liver_damage_in_humans
This is just one site, there are loads, but having problems pasting links.

Oldvatr, you may well be right. The sites I saw gave no reasons, but all said its a bad idea. And because I have lost a fair bit of weight quickly I would much rather not be making things worse.

Littlegreycat, thankyou!!! I am embarrassingly pleased with myself.x

 

[Pipp]

I have been pondering this question for several days now. There sees to be conflicting info amongst the 'experts'.

Having followed the Newcastle diet method, I did wonder why there is no mention in their literature of danger to those with fatty liver disorders. I have looked at a few articles that mention rapid weight lost making fatty liver disease worse for those with existing fatty liver prior to starting a rapid weight loss regime. I am still trying to find evidence in academic papers.

Currently checking out these:

https://www.britishlivertrust.org.u...alcoholic-fatty-liver-disease-FLD_03_12-1.pdf

 

[Oldvatr]

Hello and thanks for replies.
I also have found no reasons for the assertion, but there is a lot out there to say there is a real connection.

https://www.researchgate.net/post/Does_acute_weight_loss_cause_liver_damage_in_humans
This is just one site, there are loads, but having problems pasting links.

Oldvatr, you may well be right. The sites I saw gave no reasons, but all said its a bad idea. And because I have lost a fair bit of weight quickly I would much rather not be making things worse.

Littlegreycat, thankyou!!! I am embarrassingly pleased with myself.x

Personally I was nervous going too quickly into a new diet, so I eased myself gradually into it. My weight loss was gradual, since I kept above my keto trigger. But at one point I bit the bullet, and changed diet to go full keto. My weight chart does show a brief sharp blip to below my target weight, which I counter acted by raising carbs slightly and increasing fat intake. Since then I decided to not be too strict , and run my diet so I dip in and out of keto, which keeps my weight stable, and avoids hypo's too,

This is my second year on this way of life so I find it maintainable. My T2D is is almost in remission, and I have cut my meds dependancy considerably. I have become more carb tolerant along the way, so although not cured, I do seem to have reduced my Insulin Resistance a bit.

I think the real danger from too rapid a weight loss is the body scavenging muscle tissue to provide energy which in turn icreases the effect of weight loss since muscle weighs more than fat thus compounding the issue. Looks great on the chart, but may be leadiing to unseen damage. So it is important that any diet makes sure that any major drop in carbs and sugars is compensated for by either increasng protein or fat to give an alternative fuel for the body to use when cutting carbs suddenly.

One last point is that the Liver can store either glucose sourced 'fat' or lipid fat from the blood, but when losing weight it is the glucose fat and water that goes first, then scavenging from muscle and protein, then finally the adipose (lipid) fat is the last to go. The reason for this is that lipid fat is the bank of last resort, and provides protection for the brain and other vital organs. This is the body's survival protection mechanism. Thus reducing NAFLD is quite a challenge and requires drastic depletion strategies (starvation, fasting, HIT, marathons etc). To me, Keto is an easier alternative to mimic starvation without being starved or hungry. This is why crash diets are generally limited in time to about 8 weeks, after which they should change to maintenance. The power of any diet is how much hardship do we have to endure in terms of hunger etc, vs is there a viable maintenance strategy after, Very few diets help with this follow up phase, which is why people 'come off' their diets and put it all back on (and some!)

 

[Oldvatr]

>>>>>>
Having followed the Newcastle diet method, I did wonder why there is no mention in their literature of danger to those with fatty liver disorders.
<<<<<<

Simple explanation is that the majority of us do not know what level of FLD we may have, since normal screening checks do not help in informing us or the GP. It requires special tests to measure or view a fatty liver, which GP's are reluctant to pay for,

Insulin dependant diabetics have a chance to determine the effect of their diet in the way it changes their doseage. and T2D can do an 'at home' OGTT type of test to see how their body changes response to a sudden influx of glucose. But neither gives an absolute value for NAFLD, and both are open to interpretation,

So I do not know if I have a liver disorder due to NAFLD. I do know my enzyme tests are showing ok at the moment, so the my liver does not appear to be failing, but when the GP hepatic tests start to show damage, then it is too late to do much about it. Very few reserach studies into diet monitor for NAFLD, so unless there is specific research into the condition, it is not often linked to any diet. I believe the Atkins diet did have some studies into this because there was press coverage on that diet being dangerous, but it seems to be the only one I have come across, I think LCHF is also being studied in relation to Insulin Resistance may be linked to fatty liver.

Are the Newcastle lot including screening for FLD? I am not aware of it being part of the original trials. So how would they know to make a declaration such as suggested?

 

[Pipp]

Thanks @Oldvatr.
I don't believe Prof Taylor et al would have overlooked such an important element in their research methodology. The screening by MRI scan was to examine levels of visceral fat, which I believe would include fatty liver?

Having achieved some measure of success with Newcastle diet method, I am perhaps a bit biased, and aware that anecdotal evidence from my own experience may only be applicable to me. I did, however, have a conversation with the surgeon who was repairing my abdominal contents shortly after I had compled a very low calorie diet, (Newcastle style), who confirmed my liver was not enlarged, and that there was very little visceral fat in my abdomen.

I have emailed the Newcastle team asking for info and clarification of the situation regarding screening their research participants for fatty liver during their MRI scans. I will report back any reply.

 

[Oldvatr]

Thanks @Oldvatr.
I don't believe Prof Taylor et al would have overlooked such an important element in their research methodology. The screening by MRI scan was to examine levels of visceral fat, which I believe would include fatty liver?

Having achieved some measure of success with Newcastle diet method, I am perhaps a bit biased, and aware that anecdotal evidence from my own experience may only be applicable to me. I did, however, have a conversation with the surgeon who was repairing my abdominal contents shortly after I had compled a very low calorie diet, (Newcastle style), who confirmed my liver was not enlarged, and that there was very little visceral fat in my abdomen.

I have emailed the Newcastle team asking for info and clarification of the situation regarding screening their research participants for fatty liver during their MRI scans. I will report back any reply.

Thank you. Will be interested in what they say.

 

[Pipp]

My reading so far has revealed this:-

http://www.ncl.ac.uk/press/news/2017/06/fattyliverdiseasereversed/

Not sure it is all that helpful, though.

 

[Kentoldlady1]

screening

Thank you. That will be very interesting indeed. And I think relevant for many of us. Please keep us posted. X

 

[Oldvatr]

Thanks @Oldvatr.
I don't believe Prof Taylor et al would have overlooked such an important element in their research methodology. The screening by MRI scan was to examine levels of visceral fat, which I believe would include fatty liver?

Having achieved some measure of success with Newcastle diet method, I am perhaps a bit biased, and aware that anecdotal evidence from my own experience may only be applicable to me. I did, however, have a conversation with the surgeon who was repairing my abdominal contents shortly after I had compled a very low calorie diet, (Newcastle style), who confirmed my liver was not enlarged, and that there was very little visceral fat in my abdomen.

I have emailed the Newcastle team asking for info and clarification of the situation regarding screening their research participants for fatty liver during their MRI scans. I will report back any reply.

I have read the study report, and although they report on body fat composition, they refer to it as MR technique, Unfortulnately the instrument they used was a Bodystat 1500 which is NOT an MRI scanner. It measures electrical impedance between two sensors, and is similar to the type of home scales that also measure overall percentage body fat. Not quite the same thing as MRI imaging and measuring.

They do report an improvement in liver impedance and also hepatic trig levels between the participating and the non respondents, but one note they make which i picked up on is that there was significant differences at baseline between these two goups to start with. They do not offer any suggestion on whether this might be significant or not, or whether it might affect the conclusions. Was there something in the way they selected their test subjects that skewed the result?

They state::
At baseline, the responders tended to have greater hepatic insulin resistance
(Hepatic IR index: 2.15 (0.82-5.95) vs.1.24 (0.42-6.60) mmol.min-1.kgffm-1
.pmol.l-1; p=0.060)

It seems this difference also feed into the insulin resistance conclusions, which are calculated from these impedance measurements above. Thus there may be a systemic error creeping through this whole section of their results.

Anyway they used the medical equivalent of an Ohmeter to estimate (IMO) these conclusions, and an MRI or ultrasoumd measurement technique might have been better, but more expensive I know my bathroom scales vary depending on temperature and damp so I stopped using this feature of my scales since resistance between the feet is not very edifying at best of times.

I still say we are some way off being able to link any diet directly to affecting fatty liver let alone detecting it in the first place. As a T2D with probable IR issues, I await the day when this can be done in a cheap home test but I dream on. So going back to the OP, then I have no answer to their question.

Edit to Correct: Since posting this, I have found out that the copy of the study report I was using was an interim version, and is incomplete. Consequently the conclusions and comments I make here are incorrect, and should be ignored. The full report was published in 2016 and is referenced in a subsequent posting.

 

[Pipp]

I have read the study report, and although they report on body fat composition, they refer to it as MR technique, Unfortulnately the instrument they used was a Bodystat 1500 which is NOT an MRI scanner. It measures electrical impedance between two sensors, and is similar to the type of home scales that also measure overall percentage body fat. Not quite the same thing as MRI imaging and measuring.

They do report an improvement in liver impedance and also hepatic trig levels between the participating and the non respondents, but one note they make which i picked up on is that there was significant differences at baseline between these two goups to start with. They do not offer any suggestion on whether this might be significant or not, or whether it might affect the conclusions. Was there something in the way they selected their test subjects that skewed the result?

They state::
At baseline, the responders tended to have greater hepatic insulin resistance
(Hepatic IR index: 2.15 (0.82-5.95) vs.1.24 (0.42-6.60) mmol.min-1.kgffm-1
.pmol.l-1; p=0.060)

It seems this difference also feed into the insulin resistance conclusions, which are calculated from these impedance measurements above. Thus there may be a systemic error creeping through this whole section of their results.

Anyway they used the medical equivalent of an Ohmeter to estimate (IMO) these conclusions, and an MRI or ultrasoumd measurement technique might have been better, but more expensive I know my bathroom scales vary depending on temperature and damp so I stopped using this feature of my scales since resistance between the feet is not very edifying at best of times.

I still say we are some way off being able to link any diet directly to affecting fatty liver let alone detecting it in the first place. As a T2D with probable IR issues, I await the day when this can be done in a cheap home test but I dream on. So going back to the OP, then I have no answer to their question.

Do you have a link to what you have read, please, @Oldvatr?

 

[Oldvatr]

My reading so far has revealed this:-

http://www.ncl.ac.uk/press/news/2017/06/fattyliverdiseasereversed/

Not sure it is all that helpful, though.

I am not sure that breeding genetically modified mice will help me at all. Also the magic bullet medication that happened to zap and remove the damaged cells may be some way off for us humans. What the study showed is that senescent cells occur in old age (I qualify, but others with FLD may not) [by definition senescent = pertaining to old age] and the only thing I read that was of interest to me was that liver fat accumulation can be ameliorated by following their DR diet. But they do not actually specify what constitutes a DR diet (DR = Diet Restricted) I suspect it may be a low lipid fat so yes it will tend to need less storage space

The author is (probably) a young graduate who is writing his thesis, so uses long words to impress to sound like he knows what he is talking about, Not sure he achieves it in this opus. I have a son doing exactly the same thing for his Phd. This reserach may be valid, and lead long term to a treatment, but I hope there is an easier way of dealing with it than producing genetically modified humans.

It certainly seems to have no connection to fast weight loss

 

[Oldvatr]

Do you have a link to what you have read, please, @Oldvatr?

Sorry I had too many tabs open in my browser and it crashed, I lost the tab and could not recover. It was an archived report and was a full report showing test method etc. It started with 30 participants, but one was excluded after the first week for non compliance of the diet.
It was not the original 2011 report, that only had 11 subjects. It is not the latest 2017 report either, but an interim one. I think this press release refers to it, but i cannot find the copy report I was reading just now.
http://www.ncl.ac.uk/press/news/2016/03/profroytaylordiabetesresearch/

I see the 2017 report was published by a different dept - Magnetic Resonance Centre, so this may be the one you were talking about. I think this study has yet to report any findings as it appears to still be in progress.

Edit to add here is the summary published 2016
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27002059

 

[lindisfel]

banting = following a Low Carb diet
IMO the Banting diet was intended to be a ketogenic (fat burning) diet, hence when successfully run in keto mode should reduce fatty livers (in theory at least). To get keto active, it requires a low intake of carbs, and a restricted protein intake too: both are necessary - the High Fat part of LCHF is to provide energy that will not raise bgl thus negating LC efforts This helps to prevent muscle loss through scavenging. BUT(big Butt) if the carb intake is above the keto trigger, or the proteins are still too high, then the resulting rise in bgl prevents keto, so fat burning stops, and fat gets put on again . This can be counteracted through exercise and muscle building, which as we know requires significant effort to do.

So a weight loss diet can IMO give rise to worsening NAFLD if it is not properly carried out. It seems most commercial diets provide s quick flush, but leave the person at loss on how to maintain the new weight. Newcastle is no different in this respect, and it is important to devise a plan for ongoing maintenance. This is a well known effect of a calorie restricted diet leading to yo-yo weight. I find personally that the LCHF diet has given me a very stable weight at around 10.5 stone, which is a good value for me, Not sure about how it has affected any NAFLD in me, since this is not being monitored, but there again, I am not running a strict diet so not always in keto mode. I am using Intermittent Fasting to assist in that respect.

Dr Ted Naiman seems to have a contrary view. He feels that some to lose body fat have to cut down their intake of fat as well as carbs and need to increase their protein intake to keep muscle! regards. Derek

 

[Oldvatr]

Dr Ted Naiman seems to have a contrary view. He feels that some to lose body fat have to cut down their intake of fat as well as carbs and need to increase their protein intake to keep muscle! regards. Derek

Not sure this is where he is at. From the interviews and presentations I have seen and blogs, he is firmly in the LCHF+ HIT exercise camp, but ketogenic through and through,. Nothing in what he said at 2017 Breckenridge about increasing protein instead of fat in his talk on IR. He seems to be HF and definitely anti LF , unless you have evidence otherwise.

OK found a reference to weight stalling on LCHF, and how to remove the plateu. He recommends increasing the protein intake from 0.8 g per kg body weight up to 1 g max per He also suggests using animal offal as the source for this protein, so therefore is definitely not recomending to lower the fat intake at the same time.

The acolyte he was answering in the blog now worships the ground he stands upon "Freakin ace" to quote the responder/ sorry, but if this is the standard of his blogs, then I do not need to follow him any further. As BB said he is preaching to the bodybuilders and look beautiful brigade. not my cup of tea (or my diabetes).

PS the blog was on how to lose body fat quickly for a competition, and the other respondents all seemed to be male. Fair enough/