GI diet?

LittleGreyCat · May 2, 2018

There is no Spoon said:
Basicly high bg means thicker gloopier blood, which puts a strain on the heart as it has to work harder to pump it round the system.
Unfortunately the heart is a muscle too, which can be Insulin Resistant so it's not getting the energy from the blood properly which in turn makes it harder for it to pump the gloopier blood round the system which leads to nerve damage in eyes feet etc..

Which would lead to the assumption that not adding sugar to the blood is the way to go, GI is adding more sugar over a longer period of time.

Which seems counter-intuitive.

Do you have references for this?
I had a quick look but couldn't find anything recent or definitive.
For a start I would like to see a comparison between the relative change in viscosity between elevated BG and dehydration, and what the normal acceptable ranges of viscosity are.

There is no Spoon · May 2, 2018

Brunneria said:
Didn’t mean to come over as preachy, so apologies to all, if I did.

No Brunneria I mean that I'm the one trying to be mindful, avoiding a preachy mindset.
Not you. Bless.

I know what worked for me and there is nothing special about me so it should work for others. Got a couple of people in the real world who have asked for my advice but then don't follow it.

I have to take a step back, and avoid being preachy.

Mr_Pot · May 2, 2018

LittleGreyCat said:
Do you have references for this?
I had a quick look but couldn't find anything recent or definitive.
For a start I would like to see a comparison between the relative change in viscosity between elevated BG and dehydration, and what the normal acceptable ranges of viscosity are.

I also wondered about that. Normal BG is about 100mg/dL or 1 gram per litre. So even if your BG is twice normal, half a teaspoon of glucose in a litre of blood is hardly "gloopy".

There is no Spoon · May 2, 2018

HI @LittleGreyCat
Specific references no I took this to be the general accepted view. i have come across more than a few times in papers specifically relating to blood viscosity through "a reduction in the deformability of the red cells and an increase in their tendency to aggregate."

I never kept any of the papers it made sense to me and accepted it and moved on, even if its not a complete picture of how it works, it's within my level of understanding with out having to spend time researching it to understand the concept better.

Quick google search. If your interested the second link is a little bit older.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2769810/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6706469

Try going on google scholar if its something you want to spend time on.

There is no Spoon · May 2, 2018

Mr_Pot said:
is hardly "gloopy".

But you under stand "gloopy" the word choice it there to not exclude anyone who is unsure what viscid means.

Remember often times we are speaking to new people or there are a lot of people reading these boards who are just visiting. I am always more than happy to dumb down an idea if it helps get the point across.

I expect the same kindness in return.

Mr_Pot · May 2, 2018

There is no Spoon said:
But you under stand "gloopy" the word choice it there to not exclude anyone who is unsure what viscid means.

Remember often times we are speaking to new people or there are a lot of people reading these boards who are just visiting. I am always more than happy to dumb down an idea if it helps get the point across.

I expect the same kindness in return.

I don't have any problem with the word gloopy. I was just pointing out that a half teaspoon of glucose in a litre of blood is not going to change its viscosity much on its own. If there is some other mechanism that increases the viscosity, then fair enough.

LittleGreyCat · May 2, 2018

There is no Spoon said:
HI @LittleGreyCat
Specific references no I took this to be the general accepted view. i have come across more than a few times in papers specifically relating to blood viscosity through "a reduction in the deformability of the red cells and an increase in their tendency to aggregate."

I never kept any of the papers it made sense to me and accepted it and moved on, even if its not a complete picture of how it works, it's within my level of understanding with out having to spend time researching it to understand the concept better.

Quick google search. If your interested the second link is a little bit older.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2769810/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6706469

Try gong on google scholar if its something you want to spend time on.

The second link seems to say that diabetics only have a higher viscosity in plasma and serum if they have (possibly severe) retinopathy, although all diabetics had higher fibrinogen.

Ploughing through the first one but haven't yet got to the bit (if it is there) where it gives a measure of how much degradation there is in viscosity and red blood cell flexibility per unit increase in BG levels.

It reads more like an explanation of why people with retinopathy and kidney damage have suffered this.

Interested because I am not sure that the slow(er) rise and fall we are discussing takes the average poster up high enough to suffer from significant thickening of the blood.

To put it another way, is this only an issue for very poorly controlled diabetics?

There is no Spoon · May 2, 2018

Mr_Pot said:
If there is some other mechanism that increases the viscosity, then fair enough.

An increase in red blood cells tendency to aggregate, clump together, with hight bg levels is often cited.
I thing @LittleGreyCat hit the nail on the head, what level of viscosity is considered normal and how much is it elevated?

There is no Spoon · May 2, 2018

LittleGreyCat said:
To put it another way, is this only an issue for very poorly controlled diabetics?

And to put it back to the original topic would you consider eating cake, jam and mars bars as part of your daily diet to be a poor way to control diabetes?

Sorry Gray those articles were not meant to be proof of concept, just somewhere to start if you were interested in blood viscosity. The both deal with microvascular not macrovascular.

Here's an extract from this paper makes an interesting read. http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/37/2/488

"Overall, changes in viscosity in diabetic patients are accepted as common and as a result of the disease. However, the relationship between blood glucose, diabetes, and viscosity may be much more complex."

Although like almost everything it summarises with more research needs to be done.

LittleGreyCat · May 2, 2018

There is no Spoon said:
And to put it back to the original topic would you consider eating cake, jam and mars bars as part of your daily diet to be a poor way to control diabetes?

Sorry Gray those articles were not meant to be proof of concept, just somewhere to start if you were interested in blood viscosity. The both deal with microvascular not macrovascular.

Here's an extract from this paper makes an interesting read. http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/37/2/488

"Overall, changes in viscosity in diabetic patients are accepted as common and as a result of the disease. However, the relationship between blood glucose, diabetes, and viscosity may be much more complex."

Although like almost everything it summarises with more research needs to be done.

Every research paper includes the conclusion that more research needs to be done.
"Publish or die" requires funding after all.

LittleGreyCat · May 2, 2018

To get even further back on topic I thought a low GI was an unprincipled American serviceman. {cough}

There is no Spoon · May 2, 2018

LittleGreyCat said:
American serviceman. {cough}

Is that you giving him his medical

AdamJames · May 2, 2018

There is no Spoon said:
would you consider eating cake, jam and mars bars as part of your daily diet to be a poor way to control diabetes?

Not at all. That sounds like a lovely way to control diabetes. I wish I'd heard about this earlier.

Mr_Pot · May 2, 2018

Isn't the cake, jam, Mars Bar paradox the reason Glycemic Load was invented. If you multiply GI by the percentage of carbs then foods end up in a more logical order.

There is no Spoon · May 2, 2018

Mr_Pot said:
Isn't the cake, jam, Mars Bar paradox the reason Glycemic Load was invented.

My only question would be, was it invented by the sugar companies?

Crocodile · May 3, 2018

Entrench me on the blue side. I can't say that I agree with most of this thread. I find that GI, when correctly managed is marvellous. I typically don't have a lot of carbs anyway but moderating the quantity based on GI works a treat for me.
Glenn

There is no Spoon · May 3, 2018

Crocodile said:
I can't say that I agree with most of this thread.

That's cool,
I ask these questions so I can understand more not to persuade or dissuade anyone.

It's hard not to see the world from your own point of view. I have always been very clear about mine T2 is a reversible condition (by itself excluding any other medical factors)

I don't always take into account that many people are in the position of trying to manage or control T2,
It's a shortcoming on my part.

LooperCat · May 3, 2018

If you consider that red blood cells have to really squeeze through the smallest capillaries, even a slight increase in blood viscosity would make a difference. If they can’t get through, the cells those vessels serve will starve, and those capillaries burst. Hence bleeds in the retina, for example.

Crocodile · May 3, 2018

There is no Spoon said:
That's cool,
I ask these questions so I can understand more not to persuade or dissuade anyone.

It's hard not to see the world from your own point of view. I have always been very clear about mine T2 is a reversible condition (by itself excluding any other medical factors)

I don't always take into account that many people are in the position of trying to manage or control T2,
It's a shortcoming on my part.

I don't really believe that T2 is reversible. It is controllable though. I say this because once sugars and carbs re-enter the diet those high BGs will come marching back over the hill.
Glenn

There is no Spoon · May 3, 2018

Crocodile said:
I don't really believe that T2 is reversible.

I believe that I open automated sliding doors by using the Force.
Doesn't make it true.

Not going to argue over semantics with you but in this context it's pretty well established;

"Reversed" refers to bg levels going from high (diabetic readings) to low non diabetic readings.
"Controlled" meaning to keep bg down as much as is possible but not reached the level of "Reversed".

You can use any word you want to describe this.

IF I was to go see a new Dr with no record of my medical history and get a blood test they would tell me I do not have diabetes. This does not make it true either.

GI diet?

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