GI diet?

[There is no Spoon]

You must have been eating a lot of sugar!

Under 9grms a day was my target.
Made everything I could from scratch and read every label totalled up sugar contents
i.e packet of crisps 0.5g

This does not take into account carb intake I had no idea what carbs were at the time.


Edited: Just went back an looked at my very first post I said about 5g per day because I subtracted
the McVities chocolate digestive each night, as I didn't want anyone telling me of.
(it was dark chocolate at least =4.5g)

 

[Lally123]

Yes of course.
It's more complex than just diet. I have drained my liver of fat and reduced the IR in my muscles which means my body can process carbs again.

That's what reversed means. The ability to process carbs at a satisfactory rate.
If I over tax my system by eating too much carbs and sugar and not exercising. Then my liver will start to clog up with fat again muscles will become IR again and my bg levels will rise, and I'm back where I started.

@Lally123 I don't want you to think I'm having a go.
It's just you made assumption about what I could or could not eat. I eat a varied meal plan some days I eat to a Keto plan others Paleo or Vegan others most are LCHF I do intermittent fasting usually 23 hours a couple of days a week today is one of those, I haven't eaten yet, breakfast will be at about 8pm,
I no longer eat to the clock.

This system works for me.

Do I choose to eat carbs certainly not on anything that would be considered a regular basis.
It's one of the reason I looked at GI a paper I read Keto vs LCFH vs GI in the treatment on NADFL which concluded GI had greater cardiovascular benefits in T2 .

I was looking at the benefits of introducing GI into this system, I have no problem with introducing more carbs and cutting back on the high fat aspect on some days, but I have one simple rule no sugar.

GI contains too much sugar.
...bag...

@Spoon do you think the cardiovascular benefits of low GI in type 2 might be the stability in blood glucose levels? Depends on what diets it is being compared to but my view is that if cardiovascular risk is heightened by postprandial glucose spikes, then if you even out the spikes with low GI that will reduce the risk? E.g. today my variation is just 0.4 mmols for the whole day so I guess my line is pretty flat. Also I have seen some recent research on very low carb giving a higher CV risk. It's all a bit of a Russian roulette really, just having diabetes raises CV risk and none of us can change that. I guess it's about minimising other risk factors as much as we can! Btw absolutely no offence taken forums are for.discussions and different opinions!

 

[Guzzler]

@Spoon do you think the cardiovascular benefits of low GI in type 2 might be the stability in blood glucose levels? Depends on what diets it is being compared to but my view is that if cardiovascular risk is heightened by postprandial glucose spikes, then if you even out the spikes with low GI that will reduce the risk? E.g. today my variation is just 0.4 mmols for the whole day so I guess my line is pretty flat. Also I have seen some recent research on very low carb giving a higher CV risk. It's all a bit of a Russian roulette really, just having diabetes raises CV risk and none of us can change that. I guess it's about minimising other risk factors as much as we can! Btw absolutely no offence taken forums are for.discussions and different opinions!

You wouldn't happen to have a link to show that research that suggests that a very low carb diet increases cv risk would you, please? I would be interested in seeing that.

 

[lucylocket61]

You wouldn't happen to have a link to show that research that suggests that a very low carb diet increases cv risk would you, please? I would be interested in seeing that.

I read that as meaning that high GI foods, even in the moderation of lower carb diets, increased cv risk.

 

[Lally123]

To those that follow a Low GI way of eating, I would like to ask how low do you consider to be low? Basically, I'm asking how many grams of carbs do you actually eat per day and per meal? Most of the starchy carbs are in the top half, near the top, so I assume you don't eat those?

Hi @bluetit I can only speak for myself but generally I have around 10-20g breakfast, 20-30g lunch, 30-40g dinner and I never usually snack. So usually between 60-100g a day. I eat the lowest carb proper.bread I can find (lidls wholemeal multiseed), couple of pieces of fruit, some wholewheat pasta/jacket or new potatoes/carrots for dinner. Those would be the sorts of carbs I eat most of the time though I might rarely have a BANANA lol just because I love them! And sometimes if I have time I have real porridge in the morning!

 

[Lally123]

You wouldn't happen to have a link to show that research that suggests that a very low carb diet increases cv risk would you, please? I would be interested in seeing that.

Will see if I can find it for you tomorrow!

 

[Guzzler]

Will see if I can find it for you tomorrow!

Much appreciated.

 

[Guzzler]

Hi @bluetit I can only speak for myself but generally I have around 10-20g breakfast, 20-30g lunch, 30-40g dinner and I never usually snack. So usually between 60-100g a day. I eat the lowest carb proper.bread I can find (lidls wholemeal multiseed), couple of pieces of fruit, some wholewheat pasta/jacket or new potatoes/carrots for dinner. Those would be the sorts of carbs I eat most of the time though I might rarely have a BANANA lol just because I love them! And sometimes if I have time I have real porridge in the morning!

Wow! You must have regained some of your inulin sensitivity. Well done.

 

[Lally123]

Wow! You must have regained some of your inulin sensitivity. Well done.

To be fair I don't think I've done very much other than take my met and gliclazide and watch the carbs! Recently saw my new consultant and he doesn't think insulin resistance is or ever has been my problem at all, a recent CT scan and liver tests showed a perfectly normal healthy liver. But blood tests showed my insulin production is way down. He thinks I'm heading for LADA rather than being type 2 but is happy for me to carry on the way I am.right now as my control is ok which suits me fine!

 

[There is no Spoon]

You wouldn't happen to have a link to show that research that suggests that a very low carb diet increases cv risk would you, please? I would be interested in seeing that.

Hi @Guzzler
took a while but I found it, before anyone tells me of I said it compared Keto diet it is a low carb version of Atkins and low fat diet. It had been a few months I got the GI part right.
be warned its about 10 pages long. https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/1199154

"we identified 2 potentially deleterious effects of this diet may promote insulin resistance, and cardiovascular disease subjects without pre-existing cardiovascular disease, had a 5-fold increased risk of cardiovascular mortality." (They concluded this is do to the measurable stress low carb puts on the body and the effect increased cortisol has because of this).

"These findings suggest that a strategy to reduce glycemic load rather than dietary fat may be advantageous for weight-loss maintenance and cardiovascular disease prevention."

 

[Guzzler]

Hi @Guzzler
took a while but I found it, before anyone tells me of I said ihttps://blog.virtahealth.com/blood-lipid-changes-with-ketogenic-diet/t compared Keto diet it is a low carb version of Atkins and low fat diet. It had been a few months I got the GI part right.
be warned its about 10 pages long. https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/1199154

"we identified 2 potentially deleterious effects of this diet may promote insulin resistance, and cardiovascular disease subjects without pre-existing cardiovascular disease, had a 5-fold increased risk of cardiovascular mortality." (They concluded this is do to the measurable stress low carb puts on the body and the effect increased cortisol has because of this).

"These findings suggest that a strategy to reduce glycemic load rather than dietary fat may be advantageous for weight-loss maintenance and cardiovascular disease prevention."

Thanks for searching, I will have a good look tomorrow.

ETA
Putting this link in to read data with a possible opposing view.
This may take me a while.


https://blog.virtahealth.com/blood-lipid-changes-with-ketogenic-diet/

 

[Crocodile]

Shame your not very good at it then isn't it.
If you just want to insult me it says more about yourself than it does about me.

That's one hell of a gift you have there to not only misinterpreter what I'm saying but what others are hearing. If you could do it with out putting words in to my mouth next time,
I would appreciate that.
There's no misinterpretation. Your words: "It's hard not to see the world from your own point of view. I have always been very clear about mine T2 is a reversible condition (by itself excluding any other medical factors)".

It is you that appears to have a problem with me questioning the use of the words "reversible condition". You can continue with this description as long as you wish but when you go to bed you'll be a T2 and when you get up you will still be a T2. Management of symptoms and effects does not mean that you have reversed the condition itself. That is my view and I stick by that view.

@Crocodile I relay don't understand what your arguing about here, this is not personal, but your language is. "I think", "I believe" and " I don't particularly care". Not accusing you of benign aggressive but you seem to have taken something here to heart and I real don't understand. You are free to disagree, you are free to have an opposing opinion.
(feel free to send me a private message if there's any thing you feel you want to hash out.)

I don't have a need to hash out anything. You choose to proliferate your responses with emojis suggesting disinterest and a nonchalant attitude. It is reasonable that I don't particularly care. I have no idea why you choose to read into the response some kind of personal angle or taking something to heart. That is ridiculous. There is nothing more than a reasonable questioning of the term "reversible condition".

I don't agree that the readers "deserve your explanation" of my posts.
You're free to disagree.
As for "Elusive Cure" it's realy very simple drain your liver of fat. Simple is not the same as easy.
(cure is your word not mine)

Pulling this back on topic if that is at all still possible I would suggest this is much harder to do on a GI diet compared to Vegan, Paleo, LCHF or Keto.

 

[There is no Spoon]

do you think the cardiovascular benefits of low GI in type 2 might be the stability in blood glucose levels?

It was more to do with IR and emotional and physical stress during diet and weight loss which leads to raised bg and more work for the heart.
Which supports a constant GI bg level could be better than postprandial spikes but doesn't take into account any increased bg as the body frees up sugar stores during a period of diet and individual metabolic rates. And there's no way every body had the same base IR level to start with. (sorry that's off the top of my head as best as I can remember it)

But if your asking in a lower over all level of bg vs postprandial spikes give a stability in blood glucose levels thus puts less strain on the heart. I think that goes back to the rush hour traffic jam analogy. (which feels so long ago now but I think I was using it to say lessening the work load is the basic concept behind GI)

The Reverse Concept
The reverse would also have to be true with spikes and dips in bg where the dip would mean less work than GI's stability in blood glucose levels. IS it better to have longer periods of (relitive) inactivity with shorter bursts of increased activity. (before anyone jumps in here and points out that inactivity for the heart means dead)

This thinking holds true for muscles, and reducing IR in muscles, the heart is a muscle which can be Insulin Resistant just like any other.

My question would be as bg increases blood viscosity is the heart doing more work more of the time on GI it certainly seems to holds true for the microvascular model. And is that better than a short postprandial spikes IF the reverse concept holds true.

There is never a cardiologist around when you need one.

 

[There is no Spoon]

@Crocodile
" You're free to disagree."
I already did.

Ok I see what the problem here is you are reading "reversed" and hearing "cured". That's your word I never used it or even eluded to T2 ever being curable. But why your arguing about it I have no idea.

What ever issue you have with using the word "reversed" take up with the medical profession it's there word.
Dr Michael Mosley https://thebloodsugardiet.com/michaels-story/
Dr Jason Fung https://medium.com/@drjasonfung/type-2-diabetes-reversal-the-quick-start-guide-6187210f14ce
Or academia Professor Roy Taylor at Newcastle University https://www.ncl.ac.uk/press/articles/archive/2017/09/type2diabetesisreversible/

Go tell them you don't like them using the word "reversed" as you "think" other people wont understand it.
Then lodge a complaint with this forum for having a page entitled "reversing" diabetes.
https://www.diabetes.co.uk/reversing-diabetes.html

I didn't invent the term "reversed" or define what it means when taking about T2 it is the term that is commonly used I'm sorry if it does not fit into your world view but that's not my problem.

 

[AdamJames]

There seems to be a lot of confusion over terms like reversed, remission and cured. I remember reading the Blood Sugar Diet book and Michael Moseley clearly was using the same terms to mean something different from one page to the next.

We'd probably all be better off if we used a full sentence to describe what we mean rather than a word. There are after all lots of ways of 'diagnosing' T2.

For me, I'd be very happy indeed, and it doesn't matter whether I call it reversed or whatever, but I'd be very happy indeed if I managed to take an OGTT and got a similar shaped curve to a non-diabetic. Not just passing the WHO criteria at zero and 2 hours, but avoiding a big spike between those times. That would suggest to me that I have to some extent restored my first-phase insulin response, and that's a pretty fundamental change which does occur for some people.

 

[Crocodile]

@Crocodile
" You're free to disagree."
I already did.

Ok I see what the problem here is you are reading "reversed" and hearing "cured". That's your word I never used it or even eluded to T2 ever being curable. But why your arguing about it I have no idea.

What ever issue you have with using the word "reversed" take up with the medical profession it's there word.
Dr Michael Mosley https://thebloodsugardiet.com/michaels-story/
Dr Jason Fung https://medium.com/@drjasonfung/type-2-diabetes-reversal-the-quick-start-guide-6187210f14ce
Or academia Professor Roy Taylor at Newcastle University https://www.ncl.ac.uk/press/articles/archive/2017/09/type2diabetesisreversible/

Go tell them you don't like them using the word "reversed" as you "think" other people wont understand it.
Then lodge a complaint with this forum for having a page entitled "reversing" diabetes.
https://www.diabetes.co.uk/reversing-diabetes.html

I didn't invent the term "reversed" or define what it means when taking about T2 it is the term that is commonly used I'm sorry if it does not fit into your world view but that's not my problem.

So what. You found three articles that use the same noun. It doesn't alter the fact that only the effects are reversed. Start the lollies and flavoured ice cream again and see just how "reversed" it is. No doubt that there will be articles around that don't use the word reversed.

 

[Bluetit1802]

Hi @bluetit I can only speak for myself but generally I have around 10-20g breakfast, 20-30g lunch, 30-40g dinner and I never usually snack. So usually between 60-100g a day. I eat the lowest carb proper.bread I can find (lidls wholemeal multiseed), couple of pieces of fruit, some wholewheat pasta/jacket or new potatoes/carrots for dinner. Those would be the sorts of carbs I eat most of the time though I might rarely have a BANANA lol just because I love them! And sometimes if I have time I have real porridge in the morning!

Thank you. So really, your diet is barely any different from someone low carbing on 60-100g a day without using the GI index.
This is what I can't understand when people say they are on a low GI diet. I would imagine the majority of us could say we are on a low GI diet. I'm sure I could. You haven't eliminated all starchy carbs, but nor have I. The only real difference between you and I is I don't eat fruit or porridge. I just portion control the potatoes, peas, carrots etc. to keep my daily amount lower than yours. It would never occur to me to class my way of eating as low GI as opposed to low carb/high fat.

 

[Juicyj]

Please note any continued bickering on this thread will be deleted, please respect each other's opinion and not make personal attacks as this breaks forum rules.

 

[lucylocket61]

Thank you. So really, your diet is barely any different from someone low carbing on 60-100g a day without using the GI index.
This is what I can't understand when people say they are on a low GI diet. I would imagine the majority of us could say we are on a low GI diet. I'm sure I could. You haven't eliminated all starchy carbs, but nor have I. The only real difference between you and I is I don't eat fruit or porridge. I just portion control the potatoes, peas, carrots etc. to keep my daily amount lower than yours. It would never occur to me to class my way of eating as low GI as opposed to low carb/high fat.

Its an interesting distinction. I suppose one could low carb by having ones carb allowance in milk chocolate or cake - therefore not low GI low carbing?

or have the NHS recommended amount of carbs, but they are selected from the low GI foods.

I think I am doing both, I am on the top of end a low carb diet but also doing a low GI diet by my food choices.

 

[Brunneria]

My main experience of 'low GI' was from a Patrick Holford book several years ago.
He was encouraging people to base their diet around healthy wholegrains and and other low GI carbs, with low to moderate protein, high omega 3s and his usual promotion of a lot of dietary supplements.

Brown rice. Brown pasta. Bulgar wheat. Buckwheat. Couscous. lots of lentils and pulses, fruit and veg.

So I suppose that view was one of highish carb levels (certainly above the 100-130g a day low carb threshold), but all from low GI sources.

I tried it for a while, but ended up feeling grotty. It was just too much carb intake for my body and ramped up the insulin resistance, caused weight gain, lethargy and erratic blood glucose, so I happily went back to much lower carbs.