Guidance re protein amounts

[DCUKMod]

Sorry to be lazy and quote so many people all at once, but there seems to be a general consensus here, so I'd probably end up saying a similar thing to everyone if I tried responding individually.

I appreciate everyone's input, and I strongly suspect you are all correct, as in the whole protein issue may be the least of my concerns, and the good that a ketogenic diet may do me is likely to outweigh anything I get wrong with protein amounts.

But just for some background, I don't have a good history with going very low carb. The first time I was aware of going less than 20g a day, I spent all night urinating and drinking every 20 minutes with stabbing chest pains, and ended up in hosiptal. The doctors couldn't work out what the problem was.

So naturally I am keen to do a bit of reading around before I "try again". I don't think protein amounts will have been the problem, but I do feel I should try to educate myself by reading around, and if I spot something new to me (the idea that too much protein could be a problem was new to me!) then ask a question here.

Also re the general response that I shouldn't "sweat the small stuff", well again, I agree, and I suspect protein amounts is the least of my worries! But having just read (3rd arcticle I link to)...

"After adaptation to a protein restricted diet, if you restrict protein, diabetics experienced a 30% decrease in daily glucose concentrations."

... that's not the kind of statistic that we normally ignore! I don't know anything about this Rosedale chap, his credibility or the particular events he was referring to, but after reading an article by Jason Fung which seemed to endorse his views, and seeing that Jason Fung gets a lot of respect on this forum, I'm inclined to store the protein thing in my memory banks as something to explore if things go wrong for me again when I go very low carb.

Anyway as it stands, what I've tried since starting this thread, is my first ever "fast". I watched the Michael Moseley documentary "Eat, Fast and Live Longer" and did a bit more(!) reading around.

I decided to throw myself into the deep end of the 5:2 diet, and have 600 calories all for breakfast, going a full 24 hours till the next day. That's supposedly one of the hardest ways to stick to a fast (as having breakfast increases your appetite for the rest of the day) but I wanted to be wide awake and conscious to see if bad things started to happen again. Breakfast consisted of just 14g of carbs.

I'm pleased to say that there were no chest pains, and I got through 24 hours with no food (thanks to some peppermint tea!). The effect on my blood sugars was very interesting, at one point alarming (stayed at 3.7 for a while), but ultimately I'm glad I did it, and it's given me more confidence to try a normal 'keto' diet.

I still haven't got down to 20g of carbs when having a non-fasting day, but I'm logging what I eat and working out where to improve. The interesting challenge seems to be getting a good supply of healthy vegetables without going over the 20g limit!

Thanks for your long response.

My only comment on reading through, and from what I can recall of your time with us here would be to ask you is you have considered some of the issues you have encountered may have been due to the polar swings in your approach - for example, going straight to 20gr of carb from something a good deal higher, perhaps your body just doesn't like these seismic shifts?

Clearly every single one of us decides on our approach and whatever that is, we "enjoy" the benefits or consequences of the outcomes from that. Provided you are reconciled with that, I don't think it matters an iota which approach your choose to try.

 

[AdamJames]

Thanks for your long response.

My only comment on reading through, and from what I can recall of your time with us here would be to ask you is you have considered some of the issues you have encountered may have been due to the polar swings in your approach - for example, going straight to 20gr of carb from something a good deal higher, perhaps your body just doesn't like these seismic shifts?

Clearly every single one of us decides on our approach and whatever that is, we "enjoy" the benefits or consequences of the outcomes from that. Provided you are reconciled with that, I don't think it matters an iota which approach your choose to try.

Well annoyingly, I've just checked back through all my logs, and I completely neglected to log when it was I ended up in hospital!

But from memory, I'm pretty sure that happened at a phase when I had been gradually reducing carbs each day purely because I was "eating to my meter" and realising just how few carbs I could tolerate at that time. So I ended up at less than 20g fairly gradually. That resulted in sleepless nights due to constant drinking and urination (I confirmed it wasn't high bgs, and it was always nights, never during the day) and I wondered if I just hadn't taken well to ketosis, so I upped the carbs, not outrageously, to see if that would help, and that's when I ended up in hospital.

Generally speaking for the last few months my approach has been to reduce carbs, restrict calories and exercise with a view to keeping bgs reasonably low while losing weight. The calorie restriction has varied considerably, from 800 cals (not frequent) to say 1600 cals (more frequent). I have also had some outrageous days for calories and carbs but they tend to be one-offs or only last a day or two. There was a 'mince pie period' where the carbs and exercise were very high for over a week, but I don't think that's related.

My absolute best effort to explain it was that I'd had too much salt. One thing I remember clearly was that I'd been eating a hell of a lot of flavoured nuts with lots of salt, plus because I realised I'd been in ketosis and thought that was the problem, I'd read around on the recommendation to increase salt, so I also added 1g of salt one day. On the worst night, still convinced that I'd screwed up my electrolytes with ketosis, I had 1g of salt with water in the silly hope it might be a quick fix. If anything it made it worse, certainly not better.

Anyway all I know is now, for whatever reason, I can happily get through a day on 14g carbs, but that was a 600 cal fasting day. I'm currently working on getting down to similar carbs while on over 2,000 calories. Fingers crossed, I'm more hopeful this time.

 

[CL_in_NZ]

Whatever you do you need to make sure you give yourself time to adjust and that it is sustainable. Particularly on keto it is not something that you are adjusted too after you get past keto flu. I had problems sleeping, peed a lot and some constipation over the first couple months along with horrible breath. All of that is gone now.

I read some really good advice on long distance running and keto. They talk about keto flu and then needing a few more months for your body to really adapt and work well on keto. That is what happened to me. The first couple months I went through fat stores but after losing those I had to increase fat consumption to get enough calories each day. It was an adjustment but I just had to find good calorie sources which for me are avocado, olive oil, dairy and nuts. That is where I probably get about 70% of my calories now and I feel great on it.

 

[AdamJames]

Whatever you do you need to make sure you give yourself time to adjust and that it is sustainable. Particularly on keto it is not something that you are adjusted too after you get past keto flu. I had problems sleeping, peed a lot and some constipation over the first couple months along with horrible breath. All of that is gone now.

I read some really good advice on long distance running and keto. They talk about keto flu and then needing a few more months for your body to really adapt and work well on keto. That is what happened to me. The first couple months I went through fat stores but after losing those I had to increase fat consumption to get enough calories each day. It was an adjustment but I just had to find good calorie sources which for me are avocado, olive oil, dairy and nuts. That is where I probably get about 70% of my calories now and I feel great on it.

Thanks for that! Sorry I missed it, I often forget to come back to threads unless someone mentions my name / quotes one of my posts!