Have you cured or reversed type 2

donquinn said:

I am very keen to talk to people who have actually reversed or 'cured' type 2 diabetes. I am doing a study of the possibility of the potential to use diet or any other methods. I would be hugely grateful to anyone who will talk to me about their success or otherwise. I am a former Senior Research Fellow and now I am diabetic myself.

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You will probably be aware of the Counterpoint Study, the Lim et al. paper, 2011, Reversal of type 2 diabetes: normalisation of beta cell function in association with decreased pancreas and liver triacylglycerol.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21656330

Much has been written about what is meant by 'reversal' with commentary ranging between good control without the need for medication to a full and complete restoration to pre diabetes level. Sadly, the loss of beta cells cannot be restored. Loss is often quoted as around 50% by the time of diagnosis. This guesstimate however is a mean and so individuals vary widely. Whilst type 2 diabetes is normally characterised by the continued decline of the beta cell function, even where good control is achieved, Lim et al maintain that the decline can be halted. When they talk about reversal, they really mean it won't inevitably get worse, not that those lost beta cells grow back. They don't. But, you won't lose anymore, which is what is meant by continued decline.

There's always a fair amount of estimation in this as the only way to be sure is to slice open the pancreas of the patient and start counting. It's only ever been done post mortem and on rats. Roy Taylor of the Magnetic Resonance Centre at Newcastle hypothesises that the islets become blocked, reducing insulin secretion and the beta cells start dying off. Dramatic weight loss seemed to unblock these islets, first noted in patient's who underwent baryatric surgery. The paper above attempted to achieve the same effect through diet.

The Mag Res centre has recently published a follow up paper: Population response to information on reversibility of Type 2 diabetes,
http://www.ncl.ac.uk/magres/research/di ... ctions.pdf

and the Mag Res centre maintains a page entitled Reversing Type 2 Diabetes at
http://www.ncl.ac.uk/magres/research/di ... versal.htm

Sunshine_Kisses said:

I do very much believe its a lifestyle disease - we would never have eaten the carbs and sugars we do now, in any other century. And the 'abnormal' diet most of us choose to eat now is far more in line with what our ancestors, who didn't have diabetes as prevalently, ate.

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According to the History of Diabetes (PubMed 2002), "Clinical features similar to diabetes mellitus were described 3000 years ago by the ancient Egyptians. The term "diabetes" was first coined by Araetus of Cappodocia (81-133AD). Later, the word mellitus (honey sweet) was added by Thomas Willis (Britain) in 1675 after rediscovering the sweetness of urine and blood of patients (first noticed by the ancient Indians)."

We have always eaten carbs. They became a staple foodstuff with the introduction of farming around 7000 years ago with the onset of the Neolithic but we ate them before through gathering, not farming.

One can make too much of our earlier diets. We are all born with a vermiform appendix which harks back to our leaf eating days, but few people live in trees foraging on the branches these days, at least, not unless the local authority is building a bypass.

Well one thing we can ascertain from this thread is confidence.
Diabetes almost "adapts" to the individual therefore how you deal with it-or how it deals with you differs in every case.
Therefore we have to accept a variety of opinions.
Whether that individual is following a right path or a wrong one is therefore inevitable.
All we can do is share our experiences and hope collectively we all can gain from it

Geocacher I never said I ate food that was 'deep fried, processed or full of sugar' - that you assume I must have if I believe I was eating too much carbs and sugars for my body to handle shows you are completely missing my point. I also never have and certainly never would drink any form of pop - in fact as a child it was a bit of a running joke that if anyone ever gave me a glass of pop I would ask if I could please swap it for a glass of water. If I did eat those foods, drink those drinks, and followed a completely sedentary lifestyle, I would be overweight and as previously stated I am not nor never have been. But I did eat as has become completely normal to in our modern way of living: lots of carbs and sugar. Sugar is in pretty much everything these days - but even in the 40's was still a luxury item.

And carbs are the staple part of our diet now - I didn't say they had to be deep fried and processed; even if we're hand making our bread, pasta, and growing our potatoes, we still consume more than we would have in previous times.

I also didn't say that diabetes never existed before our modern lifestyle, I already know that it existed in Egyptians and that they reference it as sweet urine - but it wasn't an epidemic as it is today.

It also never used to be anywhere near as prevalent in many non-western civilizations, though that is changing the more western the entire world is becoming.

Reading through some of the other currently active topics, I saw you said you're overweight and have been most of your life. Although this isn't a definitive factor in every person who is dietetic, it is well documented the link between the two. It's also well documented that there is a link between insulin resistance and belly fat - any excess weight that I carry is on my belly, so that's why I'm now working hard to shift it... For me, I'd rather be searching out scientific evidence that enables me to be proactive, and learning things like the connection between insulin sensitivity and belly fat is one of them.

Another huge factor that I'm certain must play a part in things is stress - it was probably a factor for me, and so again is something I'm working towards reducing.

I also do acknowledge that there absolutely must be some 'predisposition' that some of us have - my own GP categorically stated that I couldn't be diabetic when I asked him for a hba1c test, as I didn't 'fit the bill' - and he later nearly fell of his chair when the tests showed that I had it - and has been looking for another 'reason' for me to have it ever since. And maybe there is another factor at play too; but even if there is, the fact still remains that I knew I was eating too many carbs and sugars - not stuffing my face with deep fried mars bars ;-) - just living as is 'normal' for most people in our modern times - and now am doing something about it.

I don't mean I now have to punish or 'blame' myself in someway; I don't think that would be remotely useful for me, or anyone else - I just feel there are more useful things I could be doing than trying to find something else to blame.

Having said that I do understand it can feel more comfortable to look for other reasons that we may or may not have become diabetic, but to me, searching out some external cause to pin it on is taking away the most crucial 'gift' that being diagnosed can give; the opportunity to take control back of my health and to learn what really does and doesn't work for my body. I know it's not easy, but it is an opportunity nonetheless. Every cloud and all that.


Diagnosed Type 2, 22nd Feb 2013
Hba1c 7.5
Three month trial of managing through diet & exercise.
Low carb, pescatarian
Trying various supplements!

MCMLXXIII (phew, that's tricky to type! ;-) )

Absolutely! I completely agree - and should have pointed out the caveat to all my blurb above is that it is, of course, my humble opinion. Each should be very much to their own and figuring out what works for *me* is ultimately the most important bit - and just cos something does or doesn't work for me, doesn't mean by proxy it will or won't work for others. And of course vice versa.

I do absolutely agree that it's all about forming our own opinions - and this is a great forum for sharing and seeing what has or hasn't worked for others, which we can then choose to form our own opinions on. Knowledge is power - what we then choose to do with it is definitely down to freedom of our own choices


Diagnosed Type 2, 22nd Feb 2013
Hba1c 7.5
Three month trial of managing through diet & exercise.
Low carb, pescatarian
Trying various supplements!

I dont know if there is a cure or not, without knowing if there is "a cause" or "several"
Lifestyle or genetic factors may have contributed, but this is a global issue, and we are a very diverse tribe, we dont share the same lifestyle factors, so the trigger or cause/causes is still a total mystery.

We are still only dealing with symptom managment.


Sent from the Diabetes Forum App

Another factor that is common to all countries where there is a high incidence of diabetes is that they have either adopted modern American or European animal husbandry practices or are eating imported meats and dairy products from areas using those practices.

For those unaware of what that may mean that means the animals are regularly given medication, whether needed or not, to keep them healthy or promote growth or milk production or regulate their breeding cycle. Perhaps that medication was the synthetic hormone diethylstilbestrol (DES)? The list is long, but I've chosen that example because it has been widely used and is still likely to be used outside of areas where they are now banned. It's also been well studied because it was once used in humans. The recent horsemeat scandal shows that medications given to animals do get into the food chain. We hear about those that are banned, but what about those that are not? How many generations have been exposed to them and how many have caused base level changes to the genome?

DES was used in both the US and the UK. First in 1941 as a treatment of venereal disease in women. It was widely given to new mothers to stop lactation if they chose not to breast feed. It was given to 'late bloomers' to start puberty, or to treat irregular periods. And it was used to treat advanced prostate and breast cancer. Later it was given to pregnant women who were thought to be at risk of miscarriage until double blind studies later proved it to be ineffective. It wasn't removed from that use for another 20 years and because of that I am a DES daughter. When I was nine years old they discovered that DES daughters have an increased risk of a hard to detect cancer. Subsequent research has documented that, as well as being a cacinogen, DES was also a teratogen.

DES daughters and sons have changes to their brains, reproductive systems and endocrin systems as a direct result of in-utero exposesure to DES. DES daughters are, ironically, also more likely to miscarry a pregnancy. To make matters worse the epigentic changes caused by DES have been found it third and now fourth generation offspring. As late as 1997 DES was still licensed for veterinary use and thought by many farmers to help increase milk production in dairy herds. What makes that relevent is that in-utero or childhood exposure to DES has been shown to cause adult weight gain in humans, couple that with disruption to the endocrine system and you have a recipe for diabetes and obesity. With milk given to every child with their school lunch for many years, how many children were exposed to a DES? No telling, and no telling how many received enough to affect their health later in life or that of subsequent generations. That's just another one of many potential factors that could be feeding into the current diabetes epidemic.

How many similar scenarios exist? Most medications are safe and as a result of what happened with DES and Thalidomide have been better studied than they would have been, but I wonder how many now banned medications taken by our parents or grandparents or used in the food chain are still affecting us generations later?

Prevalence of diabetes top ten are:

Nauru 30.9%
Untied Arab Emirates 18.7%
Saudi Arabia 16.8%
Mauritius 16.2%
Bahrain 15.4%
Reunion 15.3%
Kuwait 14.6%
Oman 13.4%
Tonga 13.4%
Malaysia 11.6%

Within the anglo saxon economies:

USA 10.3%
Canada 9.2%
Australia 5.7%
UK 3.6%

source http://healthhubs.net/diabetes/which-co ... -diabetes/

which given a worldwide estimate of 6.4% puts the UK in quite an enviable position.

Geocacher said:

For those unaware of what that may mean that means the animals are regularly given medication, whether needed or not, to keep them healthy or promote growth or milk production or regulate their breeding cycle. Perhaps that medication was the synthetic hormone diethylstilbestrol (DES)? The list is long, but I've chosen that example because it has been widely used and is still likely to be used outside of areas where they are now banned.

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The country with the highest incidence of diabetes is Nauru and the cause is thought to be due to a shift away from traditional foods such as fish and coconuts to diets high in refined carbohydrates and cheap, high fat beef and lamb offcuts which are typically exported to South Pacific nations from New Zealand and Australia because they are unfit for either local consumption or export to the more lucrative European markets.

I know that the use of a growth hormone in american beef is banned in the EU and as a result the USA have retaliated with high import tariffs on foods which are popular imports from certain countries. In the case of the UK, they targetted jams so a small jar of TipTree marmalade costs $10 - $12 in the 'land of the free'.

Growth hormone is known to increase insulin resitance:

'Growth hormone induces cellular insulin resistance by uncoupling phosphatidylinositol 3-kinase and its downstream signals in 3T3-L1 adipocytes.'
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11473053

It's not surprising to see the UAE, Kuwait, Saudia Arabia, Oman and Bahrain in the top group as the adopt a more American/European lifestyle in cultures where excess was rarely known in previous generations. What surprises me is how low the UK is with all the noise being made by the NHS. I've often wondered if rationing being still present into the 1950's has meant that the UK is slightly less affected by the modern plague of diabetes simply because their exposure to suspect chemicals would have been more limited. Interesting that meat was a heavily rationed product, as well as eggs and butter, not horrible things to eat but more likely to carry a chemical burden from modern farming.

Tonga, Naura, Reunion and the majority of the small pacific islands are an interesting story. Having survived by subsistence fishing and farming for generations they now have a diet that is sure death. 'Lamb flaps' from New Zealand and Australia, Corned Beef from North and South America with a higher fat content than allowed in those countries, Spam - we all know what that is, and lard rather than vegetable oils because it's cheaper, and white rice as their staple carbohydrate. Overfishing means that the pacific islanders have become more and more reliant on imported foods and high shipping costs coupled with low income mean they get the worst foods available. Often foods not even offered for sale or put into pet food in the countries of origin and often from countries where banned farming practices are still allowed. Fat is known to have a higher content of residual medications and chemicals. Is it any wonder?

It's good that detrimental farming practices are slowly being stopped, but the damage already done will likely last for generations. Studies have shown that epigenetic changes can last for four or more generations in even simple organisms like daphnia. How long will they last in humans and can they be reversed? There are some interesting studies being done with mice that show that epigentic changes can sometimes be turned off in offspring by ensuring that the mother gets adequate levels of specific nutrients in pregnancy. Perhaps that will lead to means to help prevent diabetes in humans?

Geocacher said:

It's good that detrimental farming practices are slowly being stopped, but the damage already done will likely last for generations.

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I'm not too sure it is stopping. The USA raised the issue with the World Trade Organisation and it is a dispute which is current. Even MacDonalds argue that their food is healthy, 'it's meat, bread, potatoes, good, honest, healthy food'. But, we all know that it's what you put in it that counts and corporations just think that national governments are an irritant but shouldn't have any real say in how they earn their money.

The U.S.-EU Beef Hormone Dispute
http://www.nationalaglawcenter.org/asse ... R40449.pdf

Sunshine_Kisses said:

I also didn't say that diabetes never existed before our modern lifestyle,

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How else are we meant to interpret your statement below?

Sunshine_Kisses said:

I'm not the one in denial - it's a disease of our modern lifestyle - simples

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donquinn said:

I am very keen to talk to people who have actually reversed or 'cured' type 2 diabetes. I am doing a study of the possibility of the potential to use diet or any other methods.
I would be hugely grateful to anyone who will talk to me about their success or otherwise.
I am a former Senior Research Fellow and now I am diabetic myself.
Many thanks.
Don

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I have achieved non diabetic numbers but would not say that my diabetes is cured or reversed as I know that if I succumbed to biscuits and cake with my afternoon cuppa, bangers and creamy, buttery mash for dinner or a large helping of rice, pasta,potatoes, bread or cereals then my numbers would creep up again. IMHO. you can put diabetes on hold but always have to be mindful that it is waiting in the wings if you choose to ignore it.

catherinecherub said:

I know that if I succumbed to biscuits and cake with my afternoon cuppa, bangers and creamy, buttery mash for dinner or a large helping of rice, pasta,potatoes, bread or cereals then my numbers would creep up again.

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You sound like you are torturing yourself writing that

I do so very much sympathise.

Question for me is is type 2 a real bona fide disease, or just a reaction to an eating disorder? eat lots or badly, you get fat, eat less or better get slimmer, sugar/insulin issues are often related in type 2's, if its just the bodies natural reaction, the cure is to eat well, there are always anomalies, but more exercise and adopting better diet management works, if it was a direct result of a disease, virus or poisoning why would exercise and diet change have such a fundemental effect?

Sent from the Diabetes Forum App

I was diagnosed type 2 10 years ago aged 48 having spent most of my adult life with a BMI of about 22 (never more than 25), with a reasonably healthy diet and doing zillions of miles cycle racing and long distance touring. So I don't think anyone can say that the answer to avoiding diabetes is simply to eat well and do a little exercise.
I am sure the causes are probably a complex mixture of genetic, environmental and lifestyle. I also wonder whether alcohol consumption patterns could be a factor in some people - has anyone ever looked at whether there is a correlation between binge drinking and diabetes? Binge drinking has certainly been on the rise for decades.

Here's a bit more information on the 'chicken virus' -- Adenovirus serotype 36, one of several adenoviruses that are associated with obesity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adenovirus_serotype_36

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adenovirus_infection

The effect of these viruses has been known since 1978 and nothing has been done about it, it isn't even common knowledge in the medical community and people are not tested for antibodies to see if they have been affected. Obese people are routinely told that they there are no real metabolic disorders and they are just eating themselves to death... are they really?

A child that has been infected with AD-36 is on average over 50 pounds heavier than unaffected peers. Even among obese children those affected have been found to be over thirty pounds heavier than other obese children. Interesting isn't it?

The virus was first isolated in 1978 from an obese diabetic nine year old girl -- did she have a disease caused by our modern lifestyle? I don't think so.

The virus is also common in intensively reared poultry. If you were a farmer and your livelihood depended on getting heavier chickens to market quickly would you be at all interested in treating them for a virus that will help you make more money, with an additional effect that it could pass to humans and make them want to eat more of your chickens? I don't think so.

I wonder how many T2 diabetics have antibodies for AD-36 or one of the other variants related to adult obesity in their blood? Once infected the epigentic changes are irreversible, and like all epigentic changes may be passed on to your children.

Denial, is a well known and very common problem amongst newly diagnosed diabetics. It prevents them from making the sustainable lifestyle changes that are proven to improve the condition.

We must be very careful not to peddle unproven theories about the causes of obesity/diabetes, especially when doing so leaves the 'victim' with the impression that there is nothing they can do about it, because it is probably a virus. This message will just support that very dangerous process of denial. The causes of obesity are well known. It's an excess of calories and the solution is to be found in disciplined dietary control and exercise. I am not saying that there are not chemicals in the environment which will predispose a given person to lay down fat more readily than another - I'm sure there are, but you can't become obese from eating nothing. If you use more calories than you consume you will lose weight - it is the law of physics.

For an example of the damage that unproven and incorrect science can do, look no further than the recent debacle over MMR and autism. False (but honestly believed) claims led to people not taking the correct course of action and death and disability were caused unnecessarily.

Please do not believe that your diabetes/obesity is caused by a virus. Just get down to the hard work of losing weight and don't kid yourself that you are doing all you can if you keep putting it on.

There's a difference between denial and reality... the denial that refuses to accept fact does the most damage because it prevent real research from replacing ignorance. Those interested in reality recognise and take in the credible information available and adjust their ideas to accomodate it.

It's about time that the medical profession did just that... I have very interesting conversations with my GP backed up by fact from reliable sources such as the Mayo Clinic, and the endocrinology department of the local hospital, about what the best treatments are for me. His specialty is clearly not diabetes. Fact wins, and as a result my HbA1C is consistently low, and I was able to get treatment long before I had any symptons of diabetes, and I've been able to get a meter and test strips when many are denied, and with any luck I'll add years to my life that my T2 relatives didn't get to have in their short lives. Being well informed is always useful.

It's a shame that not all of us are educated enough to recognise credible sources of information and to understand the results of well constructed studies that can be replicated consistently and tell of facts found through research conducted at reputable organisations by recognised professionals. Maybe if we were better at that we wouldn't have to deal with an NHS that gives poor treatment or denies medication and supplies to diabetics.

I am aware of the MMR scare and that Andrew Wakefield was struck off for falsifying research. It's just a shame it took so long before anyone believed the real studies that proved his research to be false. And it is unfortunately a myth still perpetuated by the amazing Dr. Oz, quack extraordinaire. And one has but to read the infamous 'Natural News' to understand how gullible the population is to miracle cures and false research. Sad but true, and autistic children in America are often forced to undergo pointless and dangerous treatments like chelation therapy simply because some quack claims it cures autism. Children have died from such 'treatments'.

However, not all research is false and not all findings are myth. It is wrong, and will always be wrong, to dispell real research that you simply don't understand when it could be the basis of prevention or cure.

Think about it.

Geocacher said:

It's a shame that not all of us are educated enough to recognise credible sources of information and to understand the results of well constructed studies

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Fortunately Geocacher, I am educated to postgrad level. I hold 2 first degrees, one of which is a science and a further science diploma. I am not a medical graduate, not a biochemist and thus do not feel adequately informed to judge the veracity of the scientific research behind this issue. However, even if there is correlation of 'chicken virus' with obesity that does not infer causation and certainly does not prove causation of diabetes. That is a basic concept of scientific enquiry.

My main issue here is not with the science - although I am sceptical about this. You will of course understand that scepticism is not the same as denial. My main issue is that many vulnerable people will clutch at any reason, however improbable, to explain away the situation they find themselves in, and therefore we should be very careful about spreading messages and giving advice that we are not qualified to give.

BTW Wikipedia is a very poor reference source. You would not be allowed to use it any academic paper.