Health Question

Ali H said:

If you are low carbing it seems as if your fat and protein intake needs to go up as a result. Eggs, bacon and meat in general seem to feature more strongly as a result.

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You are correct that (for a sustainable low-carb diet) you probably need to increase your fat intake to compensate for the energy that you are no longer getting from your reduced carbs.

On a well formulated low-carb diet, you also don't have to increase the protein at all, in fact Volek and Phinney recommend that you don't increase your protein, not because of any health concern, but because protein is a secondary source of blood glucose. On a VLC ketogenic diet it's true that you need to include a minimum amout of protein to fuel gluconeogenesis without wasting your own lean body tissue.

Ali H said:

Can I please ask if there are health concerns over the greater intake of processed and/or red meats and fats as per all the headlines that regularly appear in the papers?

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Yes there are plenty of concerns over all aspects of the diet, I'm afraid that you'll have to do the research yourself and make your own decisions, because you won't find that there is any easy answer.

There is a good discussion on the whole issue here:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=27673
Personally I think that these type of epidemiological studies are a great starting point for science, but are of little value until they are validated with properly conducted trials. As Taubes points out (in a link on that thread):

GT said:

every time in the past that these researchers had claimed that an association observed in their observational trials was a causal relationship, and that causal relationship had then been tested in experiment, the experiment had failed to confirm the causal interpretation — i.e., the folks from Harvard got it wrong. Not most times, but every time. No exception. Their batting average circa 2007, at least, was .000.

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But then you don't need to each that much red meat on a VLC diet. Chicken and cheese are my staples, although I do occaisionally indulge in a steak or an aubergine-lasagne.

The fat thing is much more interesting (and equally contraversial). Lots of recent, well respected meta-studies have failed to demonstrate a link between fat intake and mortality, the most prominent being the Cochrane Review who concluded that eating a reduced-fat diet might reduce the risk of a heart attack, but it probably won't influence your mortality:
http://summaries.cochrane.org/CD002137/ ... rt-disease

I'd also note that there has been very little work done on people increasing their fat intake on a very-low-carb diet (high-fat high-carb is almost certainly a bad idea). Where work has been done it generally finds that blood-lipid profiles significantly improve on a low-carb/high-fat diet compared with a low-fat diet:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/37202414/Volek_ProgLipidRes_2008.pdf
There are good reasons for this. When you are in ketosis your body becomes a finely tuned fat burning machine, and is much better at oxidizing both dietry and body fat.

That's good enough for me...

Not looking to cause controversy here, just interested to hear from the low carbers whether there is concern about this type of diet or if any of you have had other health problems such as heart issues as a result?

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Not at all. It's a great question and a very legitimate concern for all (very)low-carbers. I spend hours every week reading up on the latest theories and research in case any of it demonstrates that my diet is unhealthy.

It comes down to this: you need to weigh up (and add up) the risks associated with a low-carb diet, with compare them with the risks of not getting your diabetes under control, or having to rely on more medication.

For me it's a no-brainer. I'd much rather choose to reduce the known risk of diabetic complications by increasing the speculative risk of adopting a low-carb/high-fat diet.

Only you can decide what the best approach is for you.

Ali H said:

Luckily I love fish and chicken and we keep chickens so usually have eggs around at least until October when they get lazy, until March!

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That's one thing that I meant to say. Eggs are great for you and are probably most nutritious food of all. Yum.

Ali H said:

I have a feeling that insulin is looming and I need to get Cpep and GAD tests done because no amount of orals meds are bringing levels to an acceptable range, despite cutting my carbs at least in half to less than a hundred now with plenty of exercise. My GP has suspected LADA from the outset and I am again losing a lot of weight rapidly. However, I would continue to low carb too because I do not want to have to take a ton of insulin and gain weight either.

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Yes, but if your panreas is shot, then insulin is a great way forward. You don't have to put on weight, and you can still low-carb to minimise your insulin dose. Low-carb diabetic control was invented for T1 Diabetics by a T1 Diabetic (Bernstein).

If my time comes, I'm going to embrace insulin with open arms, and start eating the odd packet of Chocolate HobNobs.

Ali H said:

I just find it very hard not to be beating myself up for eating things like cheese and greek yoghurts, it goes against everything I was ever taught, rightly or wrongly!

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I've eaten a whole can of squirty cream in the past two days :thumbup:

Can I please ask if there are health concerns over the greater intake of processed and/or red meats and fats as per all the headlines that regularly appear in the papers?

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Ali, I will reply regarding my own experience. This won't hold true for all low carbers, but will reflect the thinking behind a low carb high fat diet, often called an LCHF diet.
Before that, I can see at least three reasons to restrict carbs.
One, that carbs raise the blood sugar of the majority (over 50%) of diabetics. NOT ALWAYS TO THE SAME DEGREE. Some are more affected, whilst others can tolerate a higher carb intake. Many on this forum appear to testify to the benefits they personally experience when going low carb.
Two, for weight loss.
Three, for long-term health reasons.

When I first investigated (Dec 2011) for myself what might be a healthy way for me to eat, given my recent diagnosis of T2D, one of the books I borrowed from the library had the following statement :

Saturated fat is good for you !

My initial reaction was that can't be right - we've been told since I was a boy that it was bad for you, and gave you heart disease.
That was the beginning of my journey which overthrew what I'd believed about what was healthy or unhealthy for a person of average constitution. There's always the person who smokes 40 ciggies a day, and lives to a healthy 90 ! They're not average.

I discovered there's a growing movement of people who choose to follow an Atkins/Paleo/LCHF diet.
Some think they're mad, and deluded.

I also discovered there's a growing group of medical doctors, heart surgeons, professors in cardiology etc who agree with
this approach.

http://preventdisease.com/news/12/03011 ... ease.shtml

If such ideas appeal to you check them out. Here's a repudiation (there are others !) that answers your concern :

http://garytaubes.com/2012/03/science-p ... -and-meat/

A layman's way of putting it : more meat eaters die than vegetarians. Why ? Vegetarians tend to be more health conscious and look after themselves better. Meat eaters may be more likely to be more of the 'something's got to kill you' variety, and be less health conscious. These are vast exaggerations, but point towards why results may seem to implicate what's eaten, rather than someone's attitude to good nutrition. That doesn't get measured :roll:

So, I eat what I eat now mainly because I believe it's the best way of eating for my long-term health.
I've come to see fat as something we can be in danger of depriving our bodies of. So I'm a low carber, and a high fat advocate.
Many on the approaches I mentioned (Atkins, Paleo, LCHF) seem to thrive, and report improved health markers (BMI, cholesterol, triglycerides, blood pressure etc)

My advice would be to look into all possible courses, and choose what works for you. That's why we're not all the same on this forum

Be well
Geoff

+1 to Geoff

Two recent posts from Dr Richard Feinman (the other) address exactly your question Ali and, IMHO, provide a great manifesto for low-carb/high-fat:
https://rdfeinman.wordpress.com/2012/03 ... 15-theses/
https://rdfeinman.wordpress.com/2012/02 ... our-blood/

I'd also recommend two of Jimmy Moores recent podcasts with Dr Jeff Volek (the leading researcher in low-carb/high-fat:
http://www.askthelowcarbexperts.com/201 ... eff-volek/
http://www.thelivinlowcarbshow.com/show ... ek-ep-236/

Just my experience, I dont eat any red meat. I eat chicken, cheese, eggs, some ham, semi-skimmed milk (only cos I dont like whole milk) Lots of protein there without having to eat red meat.

When I first looked at low-carb high-fat I thought of the Flintstones and gnawing on huge hunks of meat. :lol:

But its not necessary to eat red meat in order to be full and nourished. And some on the low-carbers who have helped me are vegetarians too.

By low-carb I eat around 80-100g of carbs a day, low according to my nurse, but pretty average really. Your meter readings will tell you how many carbs you can eat.

Other, wiser people will explain it all much better, but I wanted to share my own findings re: red meat.

lucylocket61 said:

Just my experience, I dont eat any red meat. I eat chicken, cheese, eggs, some ham, semi-skimmed milk (only cos I dont like whole milk) Lots of protein there without having to eat red meat.

When I first looked at low-carb high-fat I thought of the Flintstones and gnawing on huge hunks of meat. :lol:

But its not necessary to eat red meat in order to be full and nourished. And some on the low-carbers who have helped me are vegetarians too.

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That's a great point. There are veggie low-carbers too.

Great thread Ali

I have been following low carb with the principal aim to be to lose weight and get BG down. Both working.

I don't think I've increased fat but protein is up a bit, mainly due to breakfast.

I've looked through these reports (first ones I have) and I've found them facinating.

Thanks all

Mary J

PS Ali - Breakfast is by far the hardest meal of the day for me. When I don't have time or inclination I have a couple of slices of ham with philli spread on it. Or perhaps could you prepare something to have in work later?

Ali H said:

Breakfast is the hardest meal, on the days I work I leave by 7.15, I am half asleep still and omelettes etc seem a bit of a faff at that hour!

Ali

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Tesco do some cheese frozen ones (2 per box) that take a couple of minutes in the microwave.....ok so not like a fresh one maybe but good for a quick easy bite. I keep some in my freezer as I am useless at omelettes (I don't like my own!!).
HTH
Angie

Boiled egg in fridge night b4?

Hey Ali!

I'm LADA on insulin and I low carb (maximum 50g a day, usually less). I got into it as i was initially misdiagnosed Type 2 and couldn't keep my BG in single figures if I ate any carb at all. When I was finally re-classified Type 1 (LADA), I'd learnt so much about how carb affected me I thought it seemed sensible to keep the carb low and thereby keep the insulin low. LADA can be very spikey and unpredictable, so keeping the carb low helps to bring a bit of predictability into it! I don't know really about the health issues. I have increased both my fat and protein intake - I've had to as i have a tendency to lose weight when not eating carb. It's a tough one and I always feel like my own little guinea pig in some crazy experiment! My consultant told me there is no evidence that a low-carb diet has any detrimental effect (the dietician disagrees vehemently!). My lipid profile is very good (but it always was) and my blood pressure is also very good. I try not to worry about it. I just reason that keeping my BG under control has to take priority and i'll have to face the consequences of the low-carb diet if they occur.

Smidge

I forgot to add Fish to my list of protein. Lots and lots of lovely fish

I often eat an Avacado for breakfast, or if I'm in a rush a low-carb protein bar. This morning I had some full-fat Greek Yoghurt. Sugar-free Jelly and cream is another breakfast staple for me.

To be honest, I can easily skip breakfast, so I prefer to save my carbs up for a big lunch and an even bigger dinner!

I think that one of the best things about the (very) low-carb diet is that it gets you into a pattern of eating when you are hungry and skipping food when you are not. I'm certainly less inclined to snack these days...

Ali H said:

Well great news, our private health insurers have agreed to fund a referral to an endo to get some answers once and for all. If anybody knows a good one in the Bath, Poole, Bournemouth, Exeter area please PM me.

Borofergie can't stand Avocados but I do have greek yoghurt with strawbs, raspberries or mixed berries made into a smoothie sometimes. I had a fab overnight fasting of 5.9 this morning, but 3 hours after just a couple of slices of bergen toast it was still at 10.5. I had thrown januvia, glic and metformin at it as per my regime too. It is just ludicrous. It should have dropped back into range with that little lot, it was hardly a massive, blow out, mega carb breakfast.

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Great news about the Endo.

Less great news about the BG, as you say that is a pretty big spike for a couple of slices of Bergen. Hopefully the Endo will be able to sort you out properly!

Let us know how you get on. Most of us never get to see one, so it'll be interesting to hear how it goes.

Stephen