Help: Animal Insulin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[~Anna~]

Hi there :wave:
I literally joined around 25 minutes ago, after reading this particular thread: Lantus users - Problems
( http://www.diabetes.co.uk/diabetes-forum/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=2797&hilit=animal+insulin )

I wanted to get in touch with the thread starter, Janabelle, along with a few other users however being a newly registered member I don't think I'm able to PM just yet...So here is my thread and some questions I would like answered by diabetics who are now using animal insulin.

Im 25 years of age, and I was diagnosed in 1998 at the young age of 12. :crazy:
I cant remember every insulin type that I have used, however none have been of animal origin, so this is something fairly new to me.
I was recently put on Lantus (aswell, as Humalog) several years ago...and I was experiencing symptoms that I think could be attributed to the analogue insulins that I am using (forgetfulness, headaches, fatigue, pains running down my legs, flu like sinus problems that come & go coincidentally in the mornings & evenings when I inject Lantus).
I have an appointment to see my GP on Monday ( 13th August) so I would definitely mention it to her about possibly switching to animal insulin (*fingers crossed*)

As I mentioned previously above, I am using both Lantus & Humalog, and I will say I do prefer this basal/bolus regime, in that I get to only inject Humalog if & when I have eaten, as oppose to eating continuously through out the day to keep blood sugar levels stable, when I was on pre-mixed insulins.

My question is:
-Is there a similar basal/bolus regime that I could adopt using animal insulin.

I have looked at the action & duration times (found on the IDDT website: http://www.iddt.org/about/gm-vs-animal-insulin/action-and-duration-times-of-animal-gm-human-and-analogue-insulins/ ) and it seems I could either opt for the:
- Hypurin Bovine Lente and Hypurin Porcine Neutral
or
- Hypurin Porcine Isophane and Hypurin Porcine Neutral.

I also wanted to know, for those of you taking animal insulin, how easy is it to obtain?
I live in Birmingham...and so would I need to order animal insulin from another county? Or would my local Boots/Lloyds pharmacy stock it.

Apologies for the very long post, but I feel if my questions are answered it will be that bit easier relaying the information to my Docter..on Monday!

Thankyou!

 

[KateF]

Hi Anna, I can't see why your local pharmacist can't order it in when they know who you are as presumably you have your repeat prescription through the same chemist generally? Our local pharmacy had to get the analog insulin for my oh as they didn't carry it so i'd think this was the same sort of process regardless of the nature of the insulin maybe go ask them or give them a call?

 

[~Anna~]

Hi Anna, I can't see why your local pharmacist can't order it in when they know who you are as presumably you have your repeat prescription through the same chemist generally? Our local pharmacy had to get the analog insulin for my oh as they didn't carry it so i'd think this was the same sort of process regardless of the nature of the insulin maybe go ask them or give them a call?

Hi Kate, appreciate the reply.

As Ive stated in my initial post, I've been considering switching from analogue insulin to animal insulin and I've been weighing up the pros & cons of both insulin types:

-Reading several threads/posts on this website from users now on animal insulin, it seems to be the better of the two, in terms of overall well being.

-Blood glucose results seem to be more stable, while using animal insulin as oppose to analogue types.

-However, since analogue insulins are very popular or shall I say, are often prescribed to (newly diagnosed) Diabetics, this particular insulin seems to be available almost everywhere. The same can't be said for animal insulin, unfortunately.

And so...I'm just thinking if I was going to visit, say Cornwall or Edinburgh or Cardiff, and my supply of animal insulin got ruined would I have to wait several days for the pharmacy to order an emergency supply of animal insulin :crazy: (I take well care of myself & my medication BUT some things unfortunately do go wrong)

Although, Ive pointed out 3 factors...I need to thoroughly look at both insulin types and consider the better option.

 

[CollieBoy]

Anna, as KateF says your local pharmacist should be able to rustle up what you need pretty sharpish :thumbup:
Mine (Asda, Rawtenstall can get me just about anything in 1-2 working days :clap: :clap:
Try yours!
[edit]
Just seen your concerns re emergency supplies. If emergency local (on Hols) hospital/diabetic unit should be able to sort you out.

 

[CarbsRok]

Hi Anna,
I use animal insulin.
There is no problem obtaining it. The manufacture is based in Wales Pharmacy can obtain it within 24 or 48 hours with no problem at all. Just the same as any other prescription.

Yes you can use Isophane and neutral on an MDI bases. It just means to be aware of insulin stacking due to length of insulin duration. Infact you can use any basal for this and any bolus just as long as you know your bolus's duration.

You will probably need to have a small mid morning snack and afternoon as well so you match the peak of the Isophane and pos supper as well.
This obviously depends on what your basal pattern is though.

 

[~Anna~]

Anna, as KateF says your local pharmacist should be able to rustle up what you need pretty sharpish :thumbup:
Mine (Asda, Rawtenstall can get me just about anything in 1-2 working days :clap: :clap:
Try yours!
[edit]
Just seen your concerns re emergency supplies. If emergency local (on Hols) hospital/diabetic unit should be able to sort you out.

Hi!
I just rang several pharmacys that are nearby, aswell as my local Asda...and they were more than happy to order animal insulin! :thumbup:

 

[~Anna~]

Hi Anna,
I use animal insulin.
There is no problem obtaining it. The manufacture is based in Wales Pharmacy can obtain it within 24 or 48 hours with no problem at all. Just the same as any other prescription.

Yes you can use Isophane and neutral on an MDI bases. It just means to be aware of insulin stacking due to length of insulin duration. Infact you can use any basal for this and any bolus just as long as you know your bolus's duration.

You will probably need to have a small mid morning snack and afternoon as well so you match the peak of the Isophane and pos supper as well.
This obviously depends on what your basal pattern is though.

Hi!!! Appreciate the reply!
As a diabetic who uses animal insulin i have several questions in regards to animal insulin, and I hope you'd be able to answer them!!!!

I have looked at Wockhardt UK's website to have a look at the ingredients list of each type of animal insulin, and since I have a sensitivity to sulphates I'd only be able to use:
-Hypurin Bovine Lente insulin
-Hypurin Bovine (and Pourcine) Neutral insulin.

I've already stated that I would like to use animal insulin as a Basal/Bolus regime. Would the 2 insulins above be fine to use?
I know you aren't able to give actual medical advice but as a suggestion, I'd then be able to go through it with my Doctor.

I am currently injecting 10 units of Lantus at 7am and 7pm...(& varying amounts of Humalog throughout the day, depending on how much carbs I'v had).
I wanted to know...since the Bovine Neutral will act slower compared to the Humalog (I usually inject after my meal with Humalog), so would I then inject 15-20 minutes before I have a meal?

And, do I carb count while using the Bovine Neutral? Or is there a standard amount (eg 3 units) for every meal, regardless of what is eaten?
For example: I decide to have a slice of cake which has a total of 40 g of carbs
I'm currently on a 1:1 ratio....so in effect, would I simply inject 4 units of Bovine neutral? And then inject more Bovine Neutral if I decide to have another slice of cake? lol

 

[CarbsRok]

Hi Anna,
I use animal insulin.
There is no problem obtaining it. The manufacture is based in Wales Pharmacy can obtain it within 24 or 48 hours with no problem at all. Just the same as any other prescription.

Yes you can use Isophane and neutral on an MDI bases. It just means to be aware of insulin stacking due to length of insulin duration. Infact you can use any basal for this and any bolus just as long as you know your bolus's duration.

You will probably need to have a small mid morning snack and afternoon as well so you match the peak of the Isophane and pos supper as well.
This obviously depends on what your basal pattern is though.

Hi!!! Appreciate the reply!
As a diabetic who uses animal insulin i have several questions in regards to animal insulin, and I hope you'd be able to answer them!!!!

I have looked at Wockhardt UK's website to have a look at the ingredients list of each type of animal insulin, and since I have a sensitivity to sulphates I'd only be able to use:
-Hypurin Bovine Lente insulin
-Hypurin Bovine (and Pourcine) Neutral insulin.

I've already stated that I would like to use animal insulin as a Basal/Bolus regime. Would the 2 insulins above be fine to use?
I know you aren't able to give actual medical advice but as a suggestion, I'd then be able to go through it with my Doctor.
yes they can be used together as lente is basal and neutral is your bolus. I can't remember the durration of Lente though or quite how it works profile wise, so you need to be careful and do lots of testing to see how it works for you.
I am currently injecting 10 units of Lantus at 7am and 7pm...(& varying amounts of Humalog throughout the day, depending on how much carbs I'v had).
I wanted to know...since the Bovine Neutral will act slower compared to the Humalog (I usually inject after my meal with Humalog), so would I then inject 15-20 minutes before I have a meal?
30 mins before a meal is the normal time. If eating a fatty meal though inject and eat straight away so the peak of insulin and food matches.
And, do I carb count while using the Bovine Neutral? Or is there a standard amount (eg 3 units) for every meal, regardless of what is eaten?
For example: I decide to have a slice of cake which has a total of 40 g of carbs
I'm currently on a 1:1 ratio....so in effect, would I simply inject 4 units of Bovine neutral? And then inject more Bovine Neutral if I decide to have another slice of cake? lol

You carb count exactly the same way for meals. Snacking etc is best left to what you need mid morning etc depending on your blood sugar. Bolusing and waiting 30 mins to eat a snack A puts you off the snack and B you will end up with insulin stacking.
So basicly you need to decide what and how much you are eating 30 mins before you start to eat.
I use a pump now with bovine neutral in it and it works very well this way as well.
Hope that helps

 

[iHs]

Hi

Just to put another spin on what CarbsRok has said, you can if you want to control your insulin levels, your bg levels, with the food that you want to eat by eating a small snack mid morning and afternoon if bg levels are low enough, then you wont have to bolus insulin in order to eat the snack.

It is horses for courses really so you can do what is best for you. As long as you are happy with what you are doing and your weight and bg level remains ok, then so be it........ Some people only want to eat 3 times a day and others enjoy eating a small snack so its up to you to decide which way you want to play things.......

 

[nigelho]

Hi Folks,
I need some advise on using porcine neutral and isophane. I've been on porcine about 2 months after 3 years hell on novorapid and levemir and later lantus. Tried humulin S and I but on finally getting porcine all the tiredness/fatigue/drugged up feelings have gone. Now trying to get my BGs into order. I'm using nearly 3-4 times the amount of neutral than when I used novorapid but I'm struggling with the isophane. I could be having the 'Dawn Phom' as I've had readings 6-8 around 1-3am but high in the mornings around 6am. I've tried making sure that I'm around 8s before going to bed but have had hypo around 3am, even if I'm using the same dose of isophane ....18units isophane between 8-10pm and 12units at 6am. If I have about 30grams bran flakes I need to take around 20 units neutral. When I used novorapid my ratio was around 1:4 but I've found with the neutral it more like 1:1. I can live with that but how are you folks using the porcine isophane??????
Today I'm trying 20 units isophane this morning and will use 18 units tonight and see how my BGs go tomorrow morning.

 

[tigger]

This is something you need to discuss with your doctor and obviously might be affected by all sorts of other issues but it sounds to me like you're on much too much isophane or possibly the regime you're on is not right. I take 7 units of isophane just before bed (sometimes with 1-3 units of neutral to correct a high) and a banana and that seems to work well. My bedtime dosage has varied between 6-10 units dependant on pregnancy and other complications. I had to split my evening dose into a presupper neutral one and pre-bed isophane a number of years a go because I kept on hypoing around bedtime.

Neutral and isophane are much more similar to the now retired monotard and actrapid in terms of dose, regime and effect.

 

[Cazz]

Hi Nigelho, I've been using porcine insulin for about 3 years but I too found it hard to get the isophane doses right in the beginning. It was only when I tested my blood sugar every hour overnight that I discovered that it doesn't last as long as Levemir and that the daytime dose wasn't lasting 14 hours and so needed to inject my night time dose a couple of hours earlier. This then stopped my blood sugar rising overnight. E.g If I inject isophane at 7am, I need to inject the night time dose at 7.45pm so I always inject 12 and 3/4 hours after the morning injection and then inject in the morning whenever I wake up. I currently inject 3 or 4 units in the morning and 12 at night. On Levemir I used to inject 4 and 6 respectively. The lower dose has something to do with the modern insulins being more concentrated (can't remember exactly). I don't need to eat snacks between meals but I do low carb so maybe the lower doses don't cause the dips that other people are talking about. I find that I often wake up with the exact same blood sugar as when I went to bed. Hope this helps and I hope you manage to get it sorted.

 

[CarbsRok]

Question was asked here as well viewtopic.php?f=19&t=29660 reply left.

 

[sicko666]

Lol..... Like a lot have said, everyones different when it comes to insulin doses and technique its always just trial and error until you get it right for you.

Lol i am on Hypurin Porcine Neutral and Isophane.... 25units of each in the morning and 21 & 26units evening, and i have to make sure i dont hypo at night otherwise i have a epileptic seizer....Like i said its always just a case of trial and error when on a new insulin so dont get to hung up on what text books state everyones differrent and so should there doses be....Been on these insulins decades because of no warning signs with human ones ( and yes that includes modern ones tried one six months back and have gone back to porcine! ).

 

[nigelho]

Hi Guys,
Thanks for the info on using porcine isophane. It seems that mine runs out after 8-9 hours so I've tried injecting when I have my tea around 5pm to trying around 8pm and 10pm. I'll keep trying as analogues and human insulins made me feel really bad...tiredness/fatigue and fogged up head. Thankfully that's all gone. At present I inject 12 units around 6am, 6 units when I have my lunch between 10am and noon and 18 units around 5pm. I'm still high around 13 in the mornings. Sometimes I've had to inject neutral around 1am as I'm high even though my BG readings before bed are OK.

 

[Riesenburg]

Hi Anna,

I use a mix of analog and animal insulins (I know very strange but it works). Like yourself had no end of trouble with the Lantus, later found out that it actually has a greater propensity to cross the blood-brain barrier than other insulins which might explain some of its effects.

I'm on humalog for my quick acting one (could not cope with the 30mins -6/8hrs action time of the so called rapid animal ones), and on Hypurin Porcine Isophane (for my basal). The Isophane can be taken either once or twice a day. I personally would suggest looking a the Procine ones first, the main reason is that out of the two they are the most similar to human insulin molecules (there is only 1 carbon different), whereas the Bovine ones have 3 different carbons which would result in faster rejections (your body would be more prone to produce antibodies for the beef ones than the proc ones). As for the Neutrals they take a LONG time to get your sugars down, if you can control when you will eat and match the insulin peeks right it works great but if you have a busy lifestyle and your meal times need to shift even by 45mins it causes problems (besides having to stay high until the insulin finally crashes it down, if you are not too sensitive to highs then it could work).

Ultimately, getting hold of them is not a problem since they are produced here in the UK. It takes the pharmacy one day (usually) to get them ordered in. The nice thing about the animal insulins is that they are far more efficient at protein synthesis than the analogues which will reduce general muscular fatigue.

If you are going to change do it with the help of an endocrinologist, it can be quite a tricky thing to deal with during the initial shift. Once things stabilize it's great...

Hope that helps,
Frankie