Help with proteins. Type1.

[Modern_Man]

Can anyone out there explain in simple terms how and why proteins have an effect on blood glucose?

I've been T1 diabetic for 32 years but only recently (Jan 2016) converted to LCHF diet. My blood glucose control is a LOT better than it was, but it is still higher than I would like it to be. I can only assume this is from the proteins I eat. Too much protein being converted to glucose by the liver. This means my overall daily dosage of insulin is about 50 units, all for a measly 30 grams of CHO.

I need to understand the biology behind this. What is the 'decision tree' that the body follows in converting protein to glucose? I thought protein was needed mainly for muscle repair, etc, not for boosting blood sugar. I also thought that 'fat burning' (which I assume I am sometimes but who knows?) meant that I was surviving nicely without glucose, so why is my liver making it without my permission? (Ha). I also don't recall going through a clear '****** period' as your body gets used to ketosis. But I can say that I generally feel quite tired most of the time. So maybe I'm not even ketonic despite 10 months of LCHF?

Would it help if I were to build muscle (using weights) which would mean a larger proportion of protein going to muscle repair, and less to gluconeogenesis? Or would that be a waste of time because my body will only break down muscle tissue to convert to glucose regardless?

And on a more practical note, are there any simple ideas for increasing the proportion of fat in your LCHF diet? Typically I eat carb-free Full English for breakfast, cheesy-meaty-lettucey salad for lunch, and meat/spinachy-veg for dinner, although often I'll skip breakfast or lunch because I'm not hungry. I was always really happy that the LCHF diet could be so varied and tasty so I don't really want to find out that to get the benefits of LCHF I also need to incorporate 'Low Cheese'!

Anything to help me grasp what's going on with proteins would be great.

 

[Freema]

as far as I know some proteins are changed by the liver to glucose if needed or if the liver overproduces.

It takes much longer time to change proteins to glucose than for normal glucose/sugar/Starcks -carbs to get into our blood...

most people need a little under 1 gram of essential proteins per kg-body-weight, but if very athletic and doing weight-training maybe rather 1-1.5 grams of protein pro kg-body-weight ... even obese persons need about Little under 1 gram of protein per kg-body-weight

proteins are essentials and we need them every day or most every day to keep our body healthy... to repair cells and alike

yes welcome

 

[Kristin251]

Most animal/ fish proteins average 7g of protein per ounce of cooked meat/ fish. Generally the fattier it is the lower g per ounce. Fatty ground beef is closer to 6 and lean poultry in 8.5. So on average it's about 7g per ounce. There is a big difference between raw and cooked also.
I eat no more than 3 oz per meal or my bs spikes.
I'm 55kg but only eat about 35 g animal/ fish protein but I get some more in veg / nut proteins.
It is said MOST people only need 4-6 oz or 45-60 g per day. Any additional is likely to turn to bs. Also on a very low carb diet gluconeogenisis proceeds rapidly. That is the liver converting protein to bs. L
I use this all the time

http://www.calorieking.com/
And a food scale is imperative for me. I still weigh my protein. I cook salmon, rare lamb chops and steaks, shrimp, chicken, turkey all in bulk and freeze in single serve baggies. I have loads of options everyday. I am the freezer queen. Lol. Not sure how to order 2 oz steak, fish etc. I also always have canned tuna and salmon on hand. I look at the protein amount in the can and divide into 15 g servings nad freeze the rest. Most cans divide by 2,3 or 4 nicely.

 

[Modern_Man]

as far as I know some proteins are changed by the liver to glucose if needed or if the liver overproduces.

It takes much longer time to change proteins to glucose than for normal glucose/sugar/Starcks -carbs to get into our blood...

most people need a little under 1 gram of essential proteins per kg-body-weight if very athletic and doing weight-training maybe rather 1-1.5 grams of protein pro kg-body-weight ... even obese persons need about Little under 1 gram of protein per kg-body-weight

proteins are essentials and we need them every day or most every day to keep our body healthy... to repair cells and alike

yes welcome

Hmmm that's a blow.

I weigh roughly 80kg so that would allow me 80g protein per day. I've just worked out that my bacon/egg breakfast provides around 60g protein, leaving me only 20g for the remaining meals and the occasional nut/cheese/meat snack. I'm pretty sure I must blow the top off that limit with those meals/snacks.

Does theory suggest that proteins in excess of this limit be always converted to glucose?

And - pushing theory to its limits now - if I ate only fat plus 80g protein (or whatever the amount of protein 'necessary' for my body) could I do without insulin injections??

I think I need to find out, when people say the body "needs" so much protein per kg, what exactly does the body need it for?

But thanks for raising the issue!

 

[azure]

@Modern_Man No, you couldn't do without insulin if you only ate fat and a certain amount of protein.

The body changes protein into glucose - just more slowly and less efficiently. If you eat a meal with minimal carbs but containing protein, you'll still need some insulin.

Tagging @robert72 for you as I believe he eats LCHF. Also tagging @tim2000s as I think he's also eaten LC recently.

 

[Modern_Man]

@Modern_Man No, you couldn't do without insulin if you only ate fat and a certain amount of protein.

The body changes protein into glucose - just more slowly and less efficiently. If you eat a meal with minimal carbs but containing protein, you'll still need some insulin.

Tagging @robert72 for you as I believe he eats LCHF. Also tagging @tim2000s as I think he's also eaten LC recently.

Thanks. I was pretty sure that I'll never be able to dispense with the injections, but I am puzzled as to how the body uses proteins for muscle maintenance/repair. Presumably this process does not involve gluconeogenesis and does not require insulin?

 

[azure]

I'm not sure @Modern_Man I think it would only be a theoretical question because without insulin, our bodies wouldn't be functioning properly anyway, and would be 'eating themselves' like before diagnosis, so we'd be losing muscle that way.

Hopefully someone can explain in detail to you and answer your specific question.

 

[Freema]

Hmmm that's a blow.

I weigh roughly 80kg so that would allow me 80g protein per day. I've just worked out that my bacon/egg breakfast provides around 60g protein, leaving me only 20g for the remaining meals and the occasional nut/cheese/meat snack. I'm pretty sure I must blow the top off that limit with those meals/snacks.

Does theory suggest that proteins in excess of this limit be always converted to glucose?

And - pushing theory to its limits now - if I ate only fat plus 80g protein (or whatever the amount of protein 'necessary' for my body) could I do without insulin injections??

I think I need to find out, when people say the body "needs" so much protein per kg, what exactly does the body need it for?

But thanks for raising the issue!

well I am not a scientist , but as I know it proteins or certain proteins a wide variety of them are nessescary to build cells and especially muscles-cells... and are used in the building of every part of the body... likevise vitamins that also are defined by being essential and by that our body can not make them ourself..... a little too much protein is not to dangerous... some think gout comes from excess protein intake and over-eating in general.... but protein can raise blood glucose... and I guess thats why the lchf-diet is so effective ; as it is high in fat and only contains the about needed dosis of protein and as few carbs as possible...


http://journal.diabetes.org/diabetesspectrum/00v13n3/pg132.htm : : :
((This raises the question of why, if gluconeogenesis from protein occurs, does the glucose produced not appear in the general circulation? Several theories have been suggested. The first is that considerably less than the theoretical amount of glucose (50–60%) produced from protein actually is produced and enters the general circulation, and the small amount of glucose released is matched by a corresponding increase in glucose use, if adequate insulin is available.4 Another theory suggests that the process of gluconeogenesis from protein occurs during a 24-hour period, and the slowly and evenly produced glucose can be disposed of over a long period of time.5 It is also speculated that the insulin stimulated by dietary protein causes the glucose formed to be rapidly stored as glycogen in the liver and in skeletal muscles. This glucose can then be released when insulin levels are low or glucagon levels are elevated, and the body does not identify if the glucose is from protein or carbohydrate.

To understand this process of gluconeogenesis and the question of why protein does not affect blood glucose levels, it is helpful to briefly review the metabolism of dietary proteins. The majority of protein is digested, and the amino acids not used for gut fuel are metabolized in the intestinal mucosal cells and transported by the portal vein to the liver for protein synthesis or gluconeogenesis.12 In the liver, nonessential amino acids are largely deaminated, and the amino group (nitrogen) removed is converted into urea for excretion in the urine.13 It has been shown that in subjects without and with mild type 2 diabetes, ~50–70% of a 50-g protein meal is accounted for over an 8-hour period by deamination in the liver and intestine and synthesis to urea.14 It has been assumed that the remaining carbon skeletons from the nonessential amino acids are available for glucose synthesis, which would then enter into the general circulation.))

 

[tim2000s]

Can anyone out there explain in simple terms how and why proteins have an effect on blood glucose?

I've been T1 diabetic for 32 years but only recently (Jan 2016) converted to LCHF diet. My blood glucose control is a LOT better than it was, but it is still higher than I would like it to be. I can only assume this is from the proteins I eat. Too much protein being converted to glucose by the liver. This means my overall daily dosage of insulin is about 50 units, all for a measly 30 grams of CHO.

I need to understand the biology behind this. What is the 'decision tree' that the body follows in converting protein to glucose? I thought protein was needed mainly for muscle repair, etc, not for boosting blood sugar. I also thought that 'fat burning' (which I assume I am sometimes but who knows?) meant that I was surviving nicely without glucose, so why is my liver making it without my permission? (Ha). I also don't recall going through a clear '****** period' as your body gets used to ketosis. But I can say that I generally feel quite tired most of the time. So maybe I'm not even ketonic despite 10 months of LCHF?

Would it help if I were to build muscle (using weights) which would mean a larger proportion of protein going to muscle repair, and less to gluconeogenesis? Or would that be a waste of time because my body will only break down muscle tissue to convert to glucose regardless?

And on a more practical note, are there any simple ideas for increasing the proportion of fat in your LCHF diet? Typically I eat carb-free Full English for breakfast, cheesy-meaty-lettucey salad for lunch, and meat/spinachy-veg for dinner, although often I'll skip breakfast or lunch because I'm not hungry. I was always really happy that the LCHF diet could be so varied and tasty so I don't really want to find out that to get the benefits of LCHF I also need to incorporate 'Low Cheese'!

Anything to help me grasp what's going on with proteins would be great.

Let's start at the beginning, with a typical day's menu for you? That would help us understand what you are seeing.

For me personally, I eat lower carb but more moderate protein, which results in about 130-150g of protein a day. As long as I manage my blood glucose levels, I can get in to ketosis at these levels, but I do need to monitor carefully.

You won't know whether you are truly fat burning without testing ketones. Your tiredness suggests that you aren't though.

So where am I going with this? You still need to do loads of testing to confirm your beliefs about what you are eating and how it affects glucose levels. Your body always produces a background level of glucose, regardless of whether you eat - that's the purpose of basal insulin - to counter this. As a T1, protein can have a glucagonogenic effect, which means that you get a much larger bg rise from eating protein than non-diabetics - this has some explanation of the reasons.

The body also tends to convert free protein to glucose as the precursor to laying it down as fat. The reason you eat more protein when doing resistance training is to rebuild the muscles. Once you exceed that needed for "rebuilding", the body has to do something with it. It stores it, but to do this it converts it to glucose, which it stores as glycogen, and when these stores are full uses insulin to convert it to fat. In a T1, you don't automatically produce the insulin to convert the excess glucose to fat, so you see a bg rise, which also coincides with a dump out of ketosis if eating very low carb.

Thanks. I was pretty sure that I'll never be able to dispense with the injections, but I am puzzled as to how the body uses proteins for muscle maintenance/repair. Presumably this process does not involve gluconeogenesis and does not require insulin?

The body breaks down protein into Amino Acids before creating the proteins it needs to repair cells. This doesn't require gluconeogenesis to take place but it does require insulin for the cells to take up the amino acids. So the body normally gets the liver to produce glucose as it releases insulin when there is a lot of protein present, to avoid hypoglycaemia.