High cholesterol on a lchf

[Oldvatr]

Hello and good morning,I was diagnosed as T2 in October 2015 and started a lchf diet much to the objections of my doctor/diabetic nurse refused Metformin .HBAC1 was 73 Cholesterol 5.9 January 2016 Hbac1 was 49 Cholesterol had shot up to 7.9 they wanted me to go on stations again I refused the mess, I had also lost about 8kgs April 2016 Hbac1 is now at 36 cholesterol is still 7.9 and I have gained 2 kgs, my question to the forum is how to get the cholesterol down on a lchf diet,I do eat/drink a lot of single/double cream sometimes looks like a small dairy in the fridge!!My carbs are somewhere between 20-50 g per day. Any ideas .Thanks
Holmesi34

It is apparently not unusual for cholesterol to rise in the early stages of LCHF. If your body is not switching into keto mode then if the fat input is high, then our bodies will store the excess in cholesterol in the bloodstream, and then as fat in the fat cells. Thus we put on weight !!! When the glucose stores are depleted, and the body starts keto, then we burnoff the cholesterol stores for energy, and this lowers cholesterol a bit. But we also raid the fat cells for stored fat, and this can keep cholesterol raised too, Eventually we stabilise with low fat reserves, low glucose reserves, and then ketosis acts to keep a low weight, ***This in turn lowers the cholesterol back down again, and the trigs in particular should drop right down below 1.0.

My TC went up by 0.1 on my last test to 7.2, but I have only just started ketogenic mode, so will have to wait for next review in July to find out whether I am talking through my Ursa Major above (***please note that my discussion above is based mainly on anecdotal evidence plus a smattering of recent seminar material that has not yet been fully confirmed)

 

[Oldvatr]

Mind you Ancel Keys may not have been the bogeyman we all think he was.
This is an old blog but none the less worth reading.
https://rawfoodsos.com/2011/12/22/the-truth-about-ancel-keys-weve-all-got-it-wrong/

I believe we already had this discussion in another thread
http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/thr...holesterol-readings.99657/page-6#post-1132158

 

[JohnEGreen]

How could I forget maybe not enough cholesterol for proper brain function please do forgive my rudeness.

 

[AtkinsMo]

The second link is another summary of the BMJ paper, it does quote the same conclusions, that the results of the study, as reported at the time, are not the same as the actual results, when re-evaluated by modern day, impartial scientists.

We all choose our poison, personally, I am entirely convinced that the cholesterol heart hypothesis is total garbage and always has been, it's just interesting to see that the so called science that it was based on was either inaccurately or fraudulently reported.

 

[JohnEGreen]

I am entirely convinced that the cholesterol heart hypothesis is total garbage and always has been

I quite agree as it says in the blog correlation is not causation.

 

[JohnEGreen]

I found this video where Dr Mercola interviews Dr Stephanie Seneff in 2012

 

[Oldvatr]

How could I forget maybe not enough cholesterol for proper brain function please do forgive my rudeness.

Its a good job I can't find that emoji that someone once sent to me, The one thats poking its tongue out LOL

 

[JohnEGreen]

consider it sent and received LOL

 

[Oldvatr]

I found this video where Dr Mercola interviews Dr Stephanie Seneff in 2012

Interesting video and well worth a view, Unfortunately it is the video equivalent of a blogspot, so has no supporting data to back it up. The discussion is well made, and one can see why the Establishment has gone to such lengths to discredit Dr Mercola in the past, I have followed him for at least 10 years now, and he is very much in the Alternative Medicine camp. However, it will be interesting if anyone can dig up the supporting data. I need to see what Stephane has published, Her biology seems to be sound, but I personally would like to get independant collabortion on it. It seems her primary source for data is trawled from comments left on websites like WebMD et al, so again this is low level evidence compared to meta studies or RCT trial reports. It is useful, but I remain sceptic of the claims made here. I am not a supporter of statins, as many here will attest, but if I am to use this as an ongoing reference, I need to make sure it holds water properly. I will research it further.

 

[Oldvatr]

Interesting video and well worth a view, Unfortunately it is the video equivalent of a blogspot, so has no supporting data to back it up. The discussion is well made, and one can see why the Establishment has gone to such lengths to discredit Dr Mercola in the past, I have followed him for at least 10 years now, and he is very much in the Alternative Medicine camp. However, it will be interesting if anyone can dig up the supporting data. I need to see what Stephane has published, Her biology seems to be sound, but I personally would like to get independant collabortion on it. It seems her primary source for data is trawled from comments left on websites like WebMD et al, so again this is low level evidence compared to meta studies or RCT trial reports. It is useful, but I remain sceptic of the claims made here. I am not a supporter of statins, as many here will attest, but if I am to use this as an ongoing reference, I need to make sure it holds water properly. I will research it further.

OK. Ive had a quick look, but I am not impressed. Stephanie is a research scientist st MIT Institute of Technology. working on artificial intelligence, NLP, and computing. She was also an undergraduate in biology, but does not appear to have completed her degree.
I have found several papers written by her in the archives. They are all verbal theory treatises that say if A is true then B follows as a direct result. There is no experimental data referenced, and even the so called trawled database material is not referenced. Just mentioned in passing. The papers are full of what I would class as pseudoscience , overly complicated and meant to confuse the reader. In one paper, the theory is that skin has cholesterol sulphate that is activated by sunlight (as in her interview). Solution proposed to increase protection against cancer is for higher levels of sunlight exposure combined with increased intake of dietary cholesterol. (eh?) In another paper, apparently cholesterol is directly responsible fo releasing insulin in the the beta cells, and so a lack of cholesterol sulphate is responsible for insulin resistance. Cure - more sunlight and dietary cholesterol. Sorry, I don't buy it.
Then there are other papers apparently written by other authors in other institutions, but if you read the abstracts, you soon realise that many of the phrases are familiar. Seems to be incestuous and again no data references, just verbiage.

After a couple of pages of Google search on cholesterol sulphate I struggled to find anyone genuinely researching this important substance. I may be wrong, as it was a very quick looksee. I am surprised that an eminent endocrinologist such as Prof Sikaris did not mention this very important compound either.

 

[SunnyExpat]

OK. Ive had a quick look, but I am not impressed. Stephanie is a research scientist st MIT Institute of Technology. working on artificial intelligence, NLP, and computing. She was also an undergraduate in biology, but does not appear to have completed her degree.
I have found several papers written by her in the archives. They are all verbal theory treatises that say if A is true then B follows as a direct result. There is no experimental data referenced, and even the so called trawled database material is not referenced. Just mentioned in passing. The papers are full of what I would class as pseudoscience , overly complicated and meant to confuse the reader. In one paper, the theory is that skin has cholesterol sulphate that is activated by sunlight (as in her interview). Solution proposed to increase protection against cancer is for higher levels of sunlight exposure combined with increased intake of dietary cholesterol. (eh?) In another paper, apparently cholesterol is directly responsible fo releasing insulin in the the beta cells, and so a lack of cholesterol sulphate is responsible for insulin resistance. Cure - more sunlight and dietary cholesterol. Sorry, I don't buy it.
Then there are other papers apparently written by other authors in other institutions, but if you read the abstracts, you soon realise that many of the phrases are familiar. Seems to be incestuous and again no data references, just verbiage.

After a couple of pages of Google search on cholesterol sulphate I struggled to find anyone genuinely researching this important substance. I may be wrong, as it was a very quick looksee. I am surprised that an eminent endocrinologist such as Prof Sikaris did not mention this very important compound either.

She is actually a 'Dr', from a Ph.D degree in Electrical Engineering and Computer Science, so I'm not going to give her much credence.

Mercola didn't qualify with a medical degree either. He's a DO, Doctor of Osteopathy, not a Doctor of Medicine.
(But he has an excellent shop, and does everything from steam sauna to poop bags for your dog)
I'm still not feeling it.

 

[JohnEGreen]

She is actually a 'Dr', from a Ph.D degree in Electrical Engineering and Computer Science, so I'm not going to give her much credence

That's up to you of course.

But remember there are many people who are not MD's doesn't mean they don't know what they are talking about.

Stephanie Seneff is a Senior Research Scientist at the MIT Computer Science and Artificial Intelligence Laboratory. She received the B.S. degree in Biophysics in 1968, the M.S. and E.E. degrees in Electrical Engineering in 1980, and the Ph.D degree in Electrical Engineering and Computer Science in 1985, all from MIT. For over three decades, her research interests have always been at the intersection of biology and computation: developing a computational model for the human auditory system, understanding human language so as to develop algorithms and systems for human computer interactions, as well as applying natural language processing (NLP) techniques to gene predictions. She has published over 170 refereed articles on these subjects, and has been invited to give keynote speeches at several international conferences. She has also supervised numerous Master's and PhD theses at MIT. In 2012, Dr. Seneff was elected Fellow of the International Speech and Communication Association (ISCA).

In recent years, Dr. Seneff has focused her research interests back towards biology. She is concentrating mainly on the relationship between nutrition and health. Since 2011, she has published over two dozen papers in various medical and health-related journals on topics such as modern day diseases (e.g., Alzheimer, autism, cardiovascular diseases), analysis and search of databases of drug side effects using NLP techniques, and the impact of nutritional deficiencies and environmental toxins on human health.

Also remember that an MD is a general degree and not particularly highly regarded in the academic world. So having an MD does not automatically make you an authority

The Bachelor of Science in Biophysics fulfills all medical and pharmacy school requirements. Biophysics students interested in research careers can pursue a graduate degree in biophysics, biology, molecular biology or neuroscience, as well as the combined MD/PhD degree in medical physics, health physics or nuclear medicine.

What is Biophysics?
Biophysics is the application of physics to biological problems. Biophysicists use the ideas, instrumentation and computational models of physics to understand living things. From the molecules within cells to the creation of medical technologies, biophysics has an enormous impact on our daily life.

Oh and just to add Louis Pasteur was a Physicist and Chemist I suppose you would not give him much credence either.

 

[SunnyExpat]

That's up to you of course.

But remember there are many people who are not MD's doesn't mean they don't know what there talking about.

Stephanie Seneff is a Senior Research Scientist at the MIT Computer Science and Artificial Intelligence Laboratory. She received the B.S. degree in Biophysics in 1968, the M.S. and E.E. degrees in Electrical Engineering in 1980, and the Ph.D degree in Electrical Engineering and Computer Science in 1985, all from MIT. For over three decades, her research interests have always been at the intersection of biology and computation: developing a computational model for the human auditory system, understanding human language so as to develop algorithms and systems for human computer interactions, as well as applying natural language processing (NLP) techniques to gene predictions. She has published over 170 refereed articles on these subjects, and has been invited to give keynote speeches at several international conferences. She has also supervised numerous Master's and PhD theses at MIT. In 2012, Dr. Seneff was elected Fellow of the International Speech and Communication Association (ISCA).

In recent years, Dr. Seneff has focused her research interests back towards biology. She is concentrating mainly on the relationship between nutrition and health. Since 2011, she has published over two dozen papers in various medical and health-related journals on topics such as modern day diseases (e.g., Alzheimer, autism, cardiovascular diseases), analysis and search of databases of drug side effects using NLP techniques, and the impact of nutritional deficiencies and environmental toxins on human health.

Also remember that an MD is a general degree and not particularly highly regarded in the academic world. So having an MD does not automatically make you an authority

I think you need to choose the medical care you feel most happy with.
So long as you trust your life to those qualifications, that's the way you should go.

I'm Just saying I'm much more mainstream in my choice of medical qualifications before I let them treat me.

 

[JohnEGreen]

So I suppose if you had been around in the nineteenth century and Louis Pasteur had offered to treat you had told you that disease is often caused by microbes or had told you that spontaneous generation was a load of rubbish you would have disbelieved him on the grounds of his lack of mainstream qualification in medicine.

 

[SunnyExpat]

So I suppose if you had been around in the nineteenth century and Louis Pasteur had offered to treat you had told you that disease is often caused by microbes or had told you that spontaneous generation was a load of rubbish you would have disbelieved him on the grounds of his lack of mainstream qualification in medicine.

You are happy with their credentials, aren't you?
You don't need to convince me, you go for who you believe in.
If you are laying your cards on Dr Seneff being your Louis Pasteur, that's your leap of faith.

 

[zand]

That's exactly it. We need to choose who we trust. That's our leap of faith. No-one can choose for us. We just use what we have learnt so far and then choose which path to follow, if we're wrong we can turn back. Credentials don't matter to me. If what someone is saying makes sense then I'll investigate it and decide if I choose to follow that path or not. I have had bad health advice from doctors and good health advice from a work experience lad in a sports shop. He had no qualifications at all, but what he said helped me immensely while the doctor's advice was useless.

 

[Oldvatr]

So I suppose if you had been around in the nineteenth century and Louis Pasteur had offered to treat you had told you that disease is often caused by microbes or had told you that spontaneous generation was a load of rubbish you would have disbelieved him on the grounds of his lack of mainstream qualification in medicine.

Phlogiston, my dear Sir, Phlogiston is the answer. It cures all bad humours.
I am concerned that although there were multiple papers describing Cholesterol Sulphate, they all seemed to be from a single source, and there was no evidence of independant verification that this compound existed let alone had the importance thar was being ascribed to it in the video.

I too have a degree in Electrical and Electronic Engineering, and was formerly a Memberof the Institute of Electrical Engineers (MIEE) and also a Member of the British Institute of Management (MBIM), a Member of the Institute of Electrical and Radio Engineers (IERE), and had the signature C.ENG and IEUR after my name. But I am an amateur when it comes to the endocrine system and associated medical matters.But years of writing and auditing technical reports has allowed me to develop a very effective bullship detector.

I apologise for this rant, but I am experiencing a slight hypo that I must now go and deal with before I go on to say anything I may regret.
EDIT TO ADD: Breaking News. Just found registration of a Paper describing a test for Cholesterol Sulphate in blood plasma. The author belongs tp a commercial firm called ANVITA HEALTH, but the authors name is blank, and there is no abstract apart from the info I provided above Apparently, I am the first and only one to access this archive entry. Anvita health is a subsidiary of Google Health and used to be called Safe Med, dealing in much the same as drugs.com, i.e. medication safety.

 

[AtkinsMo]

I am very impressed by Stephanie Seneff. She has taken the skills acquired over many decades of undertaking high level research and applied them to her new interests, and looked at the issues involved from a totally different perspective. She is courageous, thought provoking and just, well, admirable! I am afraid that the so called experts in many medical specialisms do not question, do not investigate, do not even listen to patient experience, make no attempt to learn. Medicine, for me, has come to be more about maintaining the status quo, not challenging mainstream opinion, in fact not thinking very much at all. NICE says....
We take the best of the best (or according to their A Level grades they should be) and we shove them into the sausage factory that is medical school, where they are taught not to think, but to follow guidelines, protocols, treatment plans - and nobody, but nobody critically assesses how these ideas came about, whether they are actually based on robust research, or just somebody's 'ideas'.
Give me an intelligent, independent free thinking person from outside the specialism any day (Endocrinologists are doing particularly badly at the moment, don't you think, with their outdated ideas not just in terms of diabetes management - thyroid management is as bad, if not worse - to say nothing of the adrenals!)

 

[holmesi34]

Thanks to everyone who answered my question I can see that it generated a lot of discussion some went way over my head but I will endeavor to get my head around it!!!!!

I will still refuse statins, My late mother had one cholesterol test and that was over 13 total
I think she was already on the high fat diet but without low carbs

Thanks again

 

[zand]

I think that's a good decision to refuse statins for now at least. Low carbing usually helps to lower cholesterol longer term, keep asking questions if you need to.