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How Acheivable?

Stuboy

Well-Known Member
Messages
451
Location
Portsmouth UK
Dislikes
Crowds. Being high. Being Hypo.
One of the things i talked about with the pump nurse this morning, was my targets and what i'd be happy with.

I said my targets are between 4 and 8... i thought that seemed fair and doable right?
She said that they are quite harsh targets? She told me that one of the nurses at the clinic, who is NOT diabetic often see's 10, and 11. My initial thought was... maybe she should get checked for diabetes LOL but i thought i better not insult her intelligence as i was asking for a pump after all lol.

Does anyone else have targets similar to mine? Pre-meal 4 - 6, Post-meal 5 - 8. Do you think that's acheivable? I get irritable and irritated if my numbers are over 10!
 
Hi Stuboy,

I think you are absolutely right. Surely non-diabetic blood sugars are a reasonable target and many people, types 1 and 2 have been able to achieve them. Anyone recommending blood sugars in a diabetic range (over 8) needs their head, not just their pancreas examined!
I also think you make a good point about the nurse in the 10's and 11's. Even in a credit crunch I'd put good money on seeing her in the waiting room one day soon I'm afraid - those are pre-diabetic numbers.
I guess part of the problem is that numbers north of 8 are inevitable on the sort of diet commonly recommended. So in that sense they can hardly suggest normal blood sugars are easily achievable.

All the best,

fergus
 
The correct treatment of diabetes (by whatever means, if that's diet, tablets or insulin) MUST mean aiming for non-diabetic numbers ... or it's, erm, too little too late.

I look for under 7 at any given recording time (I don't test PP until 2 hours).

I'd like to work on lowering my waking numbers but at this time (still got a cough after 2months) it doesn't seem to be happening just yet.

If I'm above 7, I often know why (I ate the potato skin off my kid's jacket potato, for instance) and then it's my fault.

If I go above 9 I feel tired and lethargic and unwilling to do anything!

As a matter of interest my DN says to aim for 7-10 at 2 hours PP ... but I tihnk I'll stick to my targets :)

Jem xox
 
I'm not on insulin, but I flip if I go above 6 at ANY time
 
I aim for 4 - 7 before meals and up to 9 afterwards depending on what I've eaten. Both doctor and nurse told me to aim for that. Most sensible thing they told me so far. :wink:
 
I had my latest HbA1c result last week, at 5.4. The previous two were 5.6 and 5.4 respectively and i take one 500mg of Metformin twice a day, primarily to control fierce DP.

But this time my cholesterol had risen even though i cant think of any real reason for that, as i continue to watch what i eat, exercise and generally be careful.

This morning i saw my GP and we discussed all this and my tendency now to drop 'low' late mornings or if i have been especially active or even missed a meal-time.

Interestingly, she felt that going low as i have been (and have been doing so in the night, too) has had an adverse impact on my cholesterol. She suggested that each time my levels drop, my body rushes to reverse the situation and the resultant bounce causes more cholesterol to be formed/retained.

She also felt that i am too tightly controled and that allowing my levels to rise a little wont harm me and might well improve my cholesterol levels, whilst reducing the number of lows i experience. She said that being too tightly controled did produce excellent BG levels and HbA1cs but that the rest of my body got stressed.

So, in the spirit of trying things, we have reduced my medicine from the 1000mg per day to 850mg per day, in one tablet, and i will increase slightly my food intake. This is a 3-month trial to see how it effects me overall and she'll take another blood test at the end of the trial to see how my cholesterol and overall control is going.

And i'll continue to monitor my levels now and then although i dont obsess and i dont check daily. I prefer instead to test randomly and when i feel unwell, lethargic, 'spacey' or after new foods. In other words, i dont test regularly but i do test reactively and proactively. I'll test my morning levels after the new drug regime has had a chance to kick in.

The low carb approach certainly works well for lowering and keeping low, the BG levels but i remain somewhat sceptical. I think there needs to be a middle course in order to keep the whole body working in harmony, diabetes being a disease not wholly understood as yet, notwithstanding. And i know that we each have to find and follow our own path in our dealings with the disease. My abiding feeling when i read the many proponents' posts online in fora such as this is that there is a tendency for hard-liners to push their low-carb gospel just a little too much. Yes, it works for many but i would suggest it works at the detriment to other aspects of life and a more moderate course might prove, perhaps not as strikingly effective as far as simple numbers goes, but good enough overall for quality of life to be achieved.

We're all concerned about the dire consequences of poor diabetes control. There is no doubting the appalling damage that can be caused, however, there is damage caused by the stress of always worrying, always being so fiercely on guard against carbs. I'm thinking of the damage to daily life, to family meals, eating out, celebrations, holidays and simply relaxing. My view, formed in the 14 months since diagnosis, is that yes, we need take this disease seriously but at the same time we need to live and humans need to eat. Carbohydrates are needed by the body. Fighting to keep BG levels close to those of a non-diabetic is all very well but at such a high cost that i question the long-term benefits.

Ho hum, that is my view anyway and here is as good a place to state it!

Getting off my own soap-box now!

bunty
 
I though as much, totally acheivable in my view...

I know we can't expect to be within target 100% of the time, but a mere 36% of the time as my results show is way out, i would be happy with 80% in target if i could get there...
 
Hi Bunty,
The control that you have achieved over your last 3 HBA1Cs is extremely good - pretty much in the non-diabetic range. Your point about low carb not necessarily being the best course for everyone is absolutely right, and in most cases when advising a low carb course, we do mention that each of us has to experiment to find a level that works for us individually - unfortunately there is no one-size-fits-all solution.

I gather from your post that you have been following a low (or lowish) carb routine and I would be interested to hear what carb levels you have been setting yourself. Even more interested to hear how you get on with a less rigid approach, so please do keep in touch and let us know how things go.
 
i aim for 5-7 before meals and 5.5-8 after meals and before bed. I pretty much hit this 75% of the time I'd say.

i hate my blood sugar to be in double figures. and have maintained A1c's below 6.2% for the past 2 and a half years, yesterdays result 5.8%

today I've been told to relax and reduce the amount of insulin I'm taking, that i'm running too tight control and i need to get my A1C up to above 6. I have to say it's knocked my confidence and i'm not sure what i'm going to do.
 
what reasons did they give to you to make your A1c above 6? Are you having hypo's?

I would have argued the point if i knew i wasn't having hypo's and acheiving numbers in range 75% of the time!
 
thats the thing Stu a week ago i would have argued that i'm not having many hypos (1 a week on average), but i've only been home for a couple of hours after spending 24 hours in hospital after a nasty hypo that went on for hours, i'm not so sure that I can argue that point anymore.

their argument was that with an A1c in the 5's and not seeing many day time hypos and hitting targets 75% of the time; then i must be going low overnight without knowing. i can't disprove this because i haven't tested during the night for months.
 
I wish i could remember where i saw it but last year i read a report from a trial in USA where two groups of Type 2s were kept on contrasting regimes.

The first were instructed to maintain really tight control and the second group, less so.

There were several adverse effects within the first group, involving some heart problems of a serious nature.

Anyway, this isnt something i can validate but having discussed my own control with the GP, who is young, open-minded and very approachable and having read a great deal in 14 months, i do believe that diabetics can have too tight a control. And i believe this is harmful in other ways, even when it achieves HbA1C results close to or matching those of non-diabetics.

I'm not advocating that we all chuck out the sensible messages regarding limitation of carbs because i know from experience how carb intake directly affects BG levels. I just think i want to take the long-term view and try to treat my whole body and to embrace the simple fact that the human body needs carbs in order to flourish. Carbs arent the enemy. They simply need to be taken in moderation.

When i read that someone here wants to achieve a BG level below 6, after eating, i grow concerned. That is frankly, obsessive and unnecessary and unrealistic. Control of diabetes neednt mean a lifetime of deprivation and constant fretting and monitoring (other than that required by, say, a Type 1). Setting such stringent goals is surely not good long term. One needs to strike a balance and accept that we diabetics may rarely live in the non-diabetic range other than transiently but that doesnt equate with risking health or serious side-effects and it doesnt indicate a casual and ill-informed approach to the disease.

It should be pointed out, i think, that a healthy non-diabetic, after eating lots of carbs etc, will have a high - double figure - BG level. I know they'll rapidly fall back to norm but not instantaneously! And those who snack a lot will not be in the 4s much of the time, i am certain!

bunty
 
although my after meal targets at 5 to 8... i do make sure im alert when the number is below 6 for a potential hypo...

I've changed my after meal target to 5 - 9 now in light of the expert nurse... but even still my readings are only 35% in target! so it doesn't help much.

Im well aware that non-diabetics go into double figures after a meal or sweets... my other halfs mum tested at 13 after a meal... she's not diabetic.

I think it's the fact that we know it's possible not to be in the double figures 2 HOURS after a meal... so when it does happen, we automatically think we must have done something wrong and get frustrated with ourselves. I know i do, and it's not something i can help, it's just the way i feel.

I certainly dont think my particular targets are that tight anyway... they cover more than the "non-diabetic" range (up to 8, now 9).

my newly adjusted targets are
Pre-Meal - 4 - 6.5
Post-Meal - 5 - 9

im still even uncomfortable seeing anything above 8 after a meal though...
 
I wish i could remember where i saw it but last year i read a report from a trial in USA where two groups of Type 2s were kept on contrasting regimes.

The first were instructed to maintain really tight control and the second group, less so.

There were several adverse effects within the first group, involving some heart problems of a serious nature.

PMFJI the quoted study relied on increasing medication in order to tighten control, not dietary self-control and therein lay the flaw.

I personally find "eat to your meter" is a much better way of going about things. We're all individual and some of us can physically tolerate foods which others can't. Achieving a sensible "managed carb" rather than totally restricted carb regime whilst optimising BGs works well for me. If I have to avoid one or two things that's fine, I can usually find an acceptable substitute which I can live with and it doesn't impinge on eating out or family life or anything else. I agree, Bunty, there's no point in living with stress for the sake of it.
 
bunty said:
But this time my cholesterol had risen even though i cant think of any real reason for that, as i continue to watch what i eat, exercise and generally be careful.

Which cholesterol? Oh don't tell me, they only did total cholesterol not the full lipid panel. :(

It's the breakdown that is important. Carb control and hence BG control almost inevitably brings down the triglycerides and increases the HDL but may have the effect of increasing LDL. However LDL is the least associated with cardiovascular and other disease factors, and my GP at least seems to have read some of the same stuff I did, although my LDL was a bit high she was not fussed in view of the generally excellent improvement in the trigs and HDL. It subsequently came down anyway probably because I was eating more of those dangerous lethal fats instead of all that nice cuddly starch <cynical grin>
 
I'm afraid i dont subscribe to the general trend here of being scathing about the GP service.

My GP did in fact look at both results of the full test and compared them with the previous results. She then examined my BP results since diagnosis and explained that, on balance, raised cholesterol that remained within accepted safe limits was not something to worry unduly about at this stage and may never be. She based this theory on my age (50), my excellent bP - 110/72 and on my good HbA1c - 5.4 the last two times. 5.6 before that. Hence the 3 month trial on a lower dose of Metformin in case my recent tendency to go low has indeed had an adverse effect on my overall cholesterol levels.

My GP and diabetic clinic nurse dont push the 'eat carbs a lot' mantra but they do urge a varied diet including them and to check to see which carbs have what effects. Initially, they did say, 'Follow a healthy balanced diet' but when i challenged them on this, they both took time to read up and when i next saw them, agreed with me. My GP in particular looked online at this and another diabetic forum and also read the NICE guidelines.

I know many doctors seem tunnel-visioned on the diet thing and on their focus on carbs. I know how irritating it is to receive conflicting advice. But we are adults and the GPs are generalists. We here have a choice to use the doctors to our best advantage whilst making every effort to take charge of our own destiny. And not all newcomers to diabetes need be so scared of carbs that they feel guilty every time they consume one. It's not the be-all and end-all of control, it's a very important part of control but in there too is exercise, moderation, education, monitoring, learning to live within a restricted but not prohibitive regime and of not succumbing to believing that the NHS is out to get us!

bunty
 
bunty said:
I'm afraid i dont subscribe to the general trend here of being scathing about the GP service. bunty
Hi Bunty,
I don't think that we go out of our way to be scathing about health professionals per se, but the unfortunate fact is that there are some doctors and nurses who do provide extremely poor advice to their diabetic patients, whether this be on diet or treatment. The vast majority of diabetic patients in this country never find their way onto this forum, quite simply because they don't need us. The advice they get from their medical teams is of the high standard that you appear to receive and that we would all like to see.

In a perfect world there would be no need for this forum. Unfortunately we don't live in utopia and it tends to be those who have received poor medical advice who turn to us for help. And lets face it, things must have got pretty bad for people to be desperate enough to turn to a predominantly medically unqualified team because they can't trust their medics. (I say predominantly because our regulars do include a GP, an orthopedic surgeon, several nurses and a research scientist.) It is not surprising therefore that comments that you see about medical professionals can show as a tendency for us to be scathing, when in fact it is a relatively small proportion of the medical profession who warrant the criticism.

Trinkwasser's cynicism is understandable when seen in the context of many posters who are told that their cholesterol is too high when in fact their highest reading is the healthy HDL component. We have even had GPs reported to us who have told patients there is no difference between HDL and LDL. Fortunately these bad "professionals" represent probably less than 5% of HPs, but 90% of the HPs treating those who contact us!
 
Look up the ACCORD and ADVANCE studies. ACCORD is the one that was stopped
 
Dennis said:
bunty said:
I'm afraid i dont subscribe to the general trend here of being scathing about the GP service. bunty
Hi Bunty,
I don't think that we go out of our way to be scathing about health professionals per se, but the unfortunate fact is that there are some doctors and nurses who do provide extremely poor advice to their diabetic patients, whether this be on diet or treatment.

Indeed I've met some truly clueless doctors, also company directors, binmen etc. and some at the opposite end of the spectrum.

What really annoys is when the doctors' competence is hamstrung by accountants with no medical qualifications. I get the distinct impression it also annoys the hell out of my current GPs who could be a lot more competent than they are allowed to be. We go through this rigmarole where I am "forbidden" to test, so I buy my own strips and take in graphs of the result, and she is "forbidden" to do an A1c or a full lipid panel, and only permitted to do total lipids once a year, so I get the vampire to biro them back in and do them anyway, and she looks at the results and tells me to keep on doing what I'm doing, only she is "not permitted" to have given me the means to do what I am doing, or to tell anyone else to follow my (and other successful patients') lead.

<sigh>
 
Bunty
i think you are alluding to the ACCORD study, which was halted, because tight control seemed to cause deaths. However this was a VERY FLAWED study. All the tight control was being managed with many doses of medication. At no time did the researchers think that it could have been side effects from too much medicine that was causing the problems. which is what many who have analysed the study have decided is what was happening
A slightly more recent and BIgger study, The ADVANCE study has shown that tight control, when managed on a reduced carb diet is no more dangerous than poor control. There are many small sudies which show that tight dietary control of T2 is life enhancing and lengthening In particular, over weight T2s lose more weight and keep it off and have better lipid profiles, when on reduced carbs.
 
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