How long does it take for liver to quit dumping?

JenniferG said:

Before breakfast, my blood sugar was 105 mg/dl.

I ate 2 grams of carbs for breakfast, which for me is relatively low. Used to eat 10g of carbs (i.e. piece of toast).

My blood sugar after breakfast is 125 mg/dl. [I'm taking basal insulin by the way, and the correct dose.]

So the only thing I can think of is the liver is dumping sugar into the blood stream because it is used to having more carbs at this time? I heard this can happen if a type 2 diabetic like myself doesn't eat *enough* carbs.

Is this temporary when switching to a lower, more ketogenic low carb diet? Say from 65g of carbs a day to around 30g? If so, how long does this last? How long before the liver quits doing this?

I'd like to maintain my normal blood sugar range of 75 to 100 mg/dl.

Thanks!

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To get into a Ketogenic diet (ketones of 1.0 - 4.0) will require 50g per day or less and more likely 35g accompanied by serious exercise according to recent court evidence given by Prof Tim Noakes.

You can of course follow a strict low carb diet around 25g - 50g of, not the same level of exercise,no intermittent fasting and get ketones around .5-.6. This is an excellent lifestyle LCHF diet, but not a ketogenic diet.

I only learned this level of detail yesterday from
the same series of short evidence video clips

In terms of the liver dump it usually lasts around up to 6 weeks or so once a person starts following an LCHF diet.


Diagnosed 13/4/16: T2, no meds, HbA1c 53, FBG 12.6, Trigs 3.6, HDL .75, LDL 4.0, BP 169/95, BPM 85, 13st 8lbs, waist 34" (2012 - 17st 7lbs, w 42").

16/6/16: FBG AV 4.6, Trigs 1.5, HDL 2.0, LDL 3.0, BP 112/68, BPM 6O, 11st 5lbs, waist 30", PWV 7.0. Lifelong migraines and hay fever gone.

Regime: 25g LCHF, run 1 mile daily, weekly fasting, occasionally longer fasts.

Kevin, am fascinated. Would really like to watch Tim Noakes' give evidence. If you can't post the video links, can you PM them to me? I realize you're just getting your day started but this girl needs sleep now...

Winnie53 said:

Kevin, am fascinated. Would really like to watch Tim Noakes' give evidence. If you can't post the video links, can you PM them to me? I realize you're just getting your day started but this girl needs sleep now...

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I can't figure how to post so will pm them to you. amazing stuff!!


Diagnosed 13/4/16: T2, no meds, HbA1c 53, FBG 12.6, Trigs 3.6, HDL .75, LDL 4.0, BP 169/95, BPM 85, 13st 8lbs, waist 34" (2012 - 17st 7lbs, w 42").

16/6/16: FBG AV 4.6, Trigs 1.5, HDL 2.0, LDL 3.0, BP 112/68, BPM 6O, 11st 5lbs, waist 30", PWV 7.0. Lifelong migraines and hay fever gone.

Regime: 25g LCHF, run 1 mile daily, weekly fasting, occasionally longer fasts.

Yay! Thanks Kevin. Here's the link to the first video, other videos are listed to the right of video (if viewed on YouTube)...

Winnie53 said:

Yay! Thanks Kevin. Here's the link to the first video, other videos are listed to the right...

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Winnie that's brilliant. Do you think you could creat a New Thread which profiles these "Must View" vids?

They literally are a condensed master class!


Diagnosed 13/4/16: T2, no meds, HbA1c 53, FBG 12.6, Trigs 3.6, HDL .75, LDL 4.0, BP 169/95, BPM 85, 13st 8lbs, waist 34" (2012 - 17st 7lbs, w 42").

16/6/16: FBG AV 4.6, Trigs 1.5, HDL 2.0, LDL 3.0, BP 112/68, BPM 6O, 11st 5lbs, waist 30", PWV 7.0. Lifelong migraines and hay fever gone.

Regime: 25g LCHF, run 1 mile daily, weekly fasting, occasionally longer fasts.

Kevin, all I did was click on the video and copy the address (from the field where we normally type in website addresses); I then pasted it as a "link" into my post.

I like your idea. Will help you in the morning (my time) if you're not successful. Let me know. Going to bed now as tempted as I am to start watching the videos... [giggle]

JenniferG said:

This was a couple hours after I woke up -- I'm familiar with the dawn phenomenon; that already happened i.e. 95 to 105 mg/dl.

I heard before if you eat too little carbs, perhaps than what your body is used to, that your body will see this the liver will deliberately put more glucose in your blood .. more than it would of if you just ate the few extra carbs. Like one type 2 told me before she has to eat 70g of carb a day because if she eats less her liver starts dumping. I think I also heard this is a temporary phenomenon that I just need to give a keto 20-30g carb some time, for my body to adjust to it. Is this true? Then perhaps I can eat 20-30g of carbs a day instead of 65g? Because I am finding I have lower blood sugars with same insulin dose eating around 65g carbs instead of 20-30g. But again maybe this phenomenon is only temporary? That'd be nice. Because I have a lot of weight to lose and a lot of insulin sensitivity to get back -- I'm highly resistant.

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Me too @JenniferG .
20-30g carbs helped my underactive thyroid but nothing else and felt like I was going to faint all the time, for weeks.
65-100g I feel normal on but thinking of reducing thyroxine and then 20g carb again to see if being overactive thyroid caused the fainting. Not advisable but I need to know not thyroid stopping my weight loss.
Bit stressed lately so I'll wait until this stressful period gone.
I take huge amounts of mixed insulin.
I took 55 units with supper and it looks like that pen didn't work properly so only got about half so had high fbg this morning.
Insulin with a protein nibble beats my liver dump. Most fatty snacks will do it. Carbs just block my insulin and cause fatty liver.

@JenniferG, I'd really recommend having a look at your fasting BGL over the course of a day to see exactly how your basal insulin is working for you. The rise in BGL you talk about after having breakfast is so small that it's basically not an issue. I have pretty good control and woke with a 3.9mmol/L this morning and without any breakfast I'm sat at 6.1mmol/L; I and many others would be/are pretty pleased with those readings. Especially because the time between me waking and now has been 4.5 hours.

Glucose levels are not linear, even in non diabetics. A rise of slightly over 1mmol/L (in the equivalent UK scale) is so small that for many T1D's that would be the equivalent of a mere 5g carbs. That makes a difference of 3g carbs (a tiny amount) plus the error margin with your meter.

Personally, I think we're all getting a bit tied up on this liver dumping issue. Diabetes is simply "weird" and there are so many factors that can alter meter readings that it cannot simply be attributed to one thing. Cut the liver some slack

Grant

"75 to 100 mg/dl is roughly 4.1 to 5.8mmol/L - I'd say that falls perfectly within the normal range?

Edited by a mod

@JenniferG You may find you get more replies if you translate your blood glucose results into m/mol.

There's a handy converter here:

http://www.diabetes.co.uk/blood-sugar-converter.html

Some posts have been deleted. Please keep replues on topic now.

We all have the converter to use so there's no need to argue over units.

azure said:

Some posts have been deleted. Please keep replues on topic now.

We all have the converter to use so there's no need to argue over units.

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The discussion seems to have been over the definition of 'normal' as the op was trying to keep to a lower than normal even fasting level, after eating breakfast.
That would be extremely difficult for any normal non diabetic to manage.
Particularly as no one actually knows what breakfast was, and the fact protein causes a rise in BG, as well as carbs.

For clarification, from this website

'for the majority of healthy individuals, normal blood sugar levels are as follows:

Between 4.0 to 6.0 mmol/L (72 to 108 mg/dL) when fasting
Up to 7.8 mmol/L (140 mg/dL) 2 hours after eating'

JenniferG said:

Thanks for all the replies. I've got a lot more to learn to figure this all out. Just started getting control a little over a month ago. Was over 200 to 300 mg/dl all the time previously.

I'll use mmol/L in the future, sorry for that. Just realized you guys use a different measurement scale.

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What was your breakfast?