How long does it take for liver to quit dumping?

[JenniferG]

Before breakfast, my blood sugar was 105 mg/dl.

I ate 2 grams of carbs for breakfast, which for me is relatively low. Used to eat 10g of carbs (i.e. piece of toast).

My blood sugar after breakfast is 125 mg/dl. [I'm taking basal insulin by the way, and the correct dose.]

So the only thing I can think of is the liver is dumping sugar into the blood stream because it is used to having more carbs at this time? I heard this can happen if a type 2 diabetic like myself doesn't eat *enough* carbs.

Is this temporary when switching to a lower, more ketogenic low carb diet? Say from 65g of carbs a day to around 30g? If so, how long does this last? How long before the liver quits doing this?

I'd like to maintain my normal blood sugar range of 75 to 100 mg/dl.

Thanks!

 

[GrantGam]

Hello,

Did you just do the one finger prick test for 105mg/dL reading and one for 125mg/dL reading?

There are error margins with all BG meters, and although they must fall within the designated margin - they don't always give the same readings every time. For example, do three readings on the trot - they will more than likley be different:

https://www.diabetesdaily.com/blog/2013/07/blood-glucose-meter-accuracy-comparison-chart/

Dawn phenomenon is also something to consider? Although the variants in your BGL values before/after breakfast and the 2g carbs would rule this out as a factor IMO.

Have you tried measuring fasting blood glucose over a day before?

Grant

 

[Winnie53]

@JenniferG I read some of your previous posts and am amazed by your health improvement in such a brief period of time. You're doing great.

I can only answer from the perspective of a type 2 with severe insulin resistance, no medication, no insulin, but will give it my best try...

To answer your question, what you experienced sounds like a normal rise in blood glucose following breakfast. My blood glucose typically peaks an hour after breakfast. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you experienced?

Two questions:

Did you take your first blood glucose level upon awakening? Or immediately before breakfast?

How much time passed between your first bite of breakfast and when you checked your blood glucose level for the second time that morning?

Here's why I'm asking...

For a week, I checked my BG immediately before awakening, then immediately before I sat down and began eating my breakfast to see if there was a "liver dump" during that time. Then I checked my BG level again 2 hours post breakfast.

What I learned is if I woke up and prepared breakfast at a normal pace, and calmly, I did not experience a change in BG levels between the "upon awakening" BG reading and the "pre-breakfast" BG reading. But if I delayed preparing breakfast or if I was rushing around too much while preparing my breakfast, I'd experience a "liver dump", or unwanted increase in blood glucose.

I find testing in pairs works best: pre-sleep and upon awakening; pre-meal and 2 hours post meal; pre-snack and 2 hours post snack. The first three blood glucose readings I just listed will tell you if your liver is producing unwanted glucose.

This article discusses three possible things that could be happening, The Dawn Phenomenon, The Somogyi Effect, and Waning Insulin... http://www.diabetesforecast.org/2008/sep/rocky-morning-highs.html

You're doing really well!

 

[Winnie53]

To answer the question in your title. I did have what I'd describe as "cortisol surges", a kind of nervous energy, followed by the unwanted "liver dump" in the morning when I first started the low carbohydrate high fat diet.

I solved the problem by beginning to prepare breakfast immediately upon awakening, which takes me 30 minutes: slicing vegetables for my morning omelet, sorting my vitamins into three doses for the day, taking my vitamins, and making a cup of tea.

Hope that helps. I should also add that I have a complicating condition, sub clinical hyperthyroid, which I've been popping in and out of for 13 years.

 

[ickihun]

I make a coffee and double cream to halt my liver dump before breakfast.
Liver dump happens to everyone, even none diabetics. Metformin helps with liver dumping.
Without metformin like me I coffee and cream then later for supper have a protein nibble with my last insulin to prevent the dawn phenomenom.

 

[Kristin251]

Some people see a rise with coffee. It will produce cortisol and andrenaline in some of us.
I have to eat immediately after I get up. Any exercise in the morning will raise me. We are most insulin resistant in the morning. I don't tolerate carbs at BF. I need a high fat with little protein as that will spike me in the morning as well. Avocado solved that. I save my protein and veggies for latter. I also need a very small sized meal.

Just things to consider and test with...

 

[Winnie53]

Oh yay, I found the study I was looking for... "Fasting Until Noon Triggers Increased Postprandial Hyperglycemia and Impaired Insulin Response After Lunch and Dinner in Individuals With Type 2 Diabetes: A Randomized Clinical Trial"

Daniela Jakubowicz, Julio Wainstein, Bo Ahren, Zohar Landau, Yosefa Bar-Dayan, Oren Froy
Diabetes Care 2015 Jul; dc150761.

http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/38/10/1820

 

[ickihun]

I make a coffee and double cream to halt my liver dump before breakfast.
Liver dump happens to everyone, even none diabetics. Metformin helps with liver dumping.
Without metformin like me I coffee and cream then later for supper have a protein nibble with my last insulin to prevent the dawn phenomenom.

Sorry I should have been clearer. Decaf coffee and breakfast after the school run.
I hope that helps.
Just keep in mind we are all different. Just telling you what I do. Please find what works for you.

 

[Winnie53]

@ickihun I'm glad you provided that additional information. At first I thought you were fasting, then I realized you referred to "breakfast" so you must be eating too.

 

[ickihun]

@ickihun I'm glad you provided that additional information. At first I thought you were fasting, then I realized you referred to "breakfast" so you must be eating too.

That decaf coffee and cream is a huge help. Very affective too.
Looking forward to my cholesterol level results next week.
I have also invested in a supplement which is an antioxident but keep forgetting to take it. Its kept hidden from interferring toddler. Hence i forget to take it.
My bg level is currently 9.9 but thats due to breadcrumbed cod fish fingers as a treat today. I'll be off to bed soon. Father's day tomorrow and have some preparation to do in am for the kids.

 

[JenniferG]

This was a couple hours after I woke up -- I'm familiar with the dawn phenomenon; that already happened i.e. 95 to 105 mg/dl.

I heard before if you eat too little carbs, perhaps than what your body is used to, that your body will see this the liver will deliberately put more glucose in your blood .. more than it would of if you just ate the few extra carbs. Like one type 2 told me before she has to eat 70g of carb a day because if she eats less her liver starts dumping. I think I also heard this is a temporary phenomenon that I just need to give a keto 20-30g carb some time, for my body to adjust to it. Is this true? Then perhaps I can eat 20-30g of carbs a day instead of 65g? Because I am finding I have lower blood sugars with same insulin dose eating around 65g carbs instead of 20-30g. But again maybe this phenomenon is only temporary? That'd be nice. Because I have a lot of weight to lose and a lot of insulin sensitivity to get back -- I'm highly resistant.

 

[Winnie53]

@JenniferG I'm confused. I don't understand why you think a 20 mg/dL rise in blood glucose after breakfast isn't normal. I must be missing something. How much time had passed between your pre-breakfast reading and your post breakfast reading?

 

[JenniferG]

@JenniferG I'm confused. I don't understand why you think a 20 mg/dL rise in blood glucose after breakfast isn't normal. I must be missing something. How much time had passed between your pre-breakfast reading and your post breakfast reading?

It's not normal because I only ate 2 grams of carbs. That's like almost eating no carbs. a piece of toast alone is like 10-12g.

 

[JenniferG]

Okay I've eaten a piece of toast before, and it spikes 10 mg/dl by two hours after breakfast.

This morning 2 hours after breakfast after eating only 2g of carbs (1/5th the amount) it spiked by 20 mg/dl (twice the amount).

 

[Winnie53]

Apologies @JenniferG I just realized why I'm confused. I don't use insulin or medication so my experience significantly differs from yours (even though we both have severe insulin resistance). I'm going to bow out and defer to others to help you.

By the way, I think your numbers when you were off insulin were excellent.

Right now, I'm searching for information on what is considered normal pre- and post-meal blood glucose levels. So far I've found this...

http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes/16422495.php

If I find more, I'll post that information here too.

 

[JenniferG]

Apologies @JenniferG I just realized why I'm confused. I don't use insulin or medication so my experience significantly differs from yours (even though we both have severe insulin resistance). I'm going to bow out and defer to others to help you.

By the way, I think your numbers when you were off insulin were excellent.

Right now, I'm searching for information on what is considered normal pre- and post-meal blood glucose levels. So far I've found this...

http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes/16422495.php

If I find more, I'll post that information here too.

Thanks. Yeah my numbers were relatively good off insulin in the 115-135 mg/dl range compared to over 300 mg/dl all the time with no diet control and no meds.

However, with a small dose of basal insulin (42 units at the moment) I can keep my blood sugar in the 75-95 mg/dl range which is the usual range non-diabetics are in all day. By doing this, it allows my pancreas to produce less insulin, and thereby have a break, and allow it to heal any remaining beta cells. If my blood sugar is not in normal range, the pancreas will never get a chance to have a break. Dr. Bernstein explains this in his Diabetes Solution book as well as his free Youtube videos I presume. Been enjoying his videos but I bought the book first, because it seemed highly recommended, even for those not on insulin. IT's a great book for both type 1 and type 2 diabetics and he goes by the low carb hi fat diet.

 

[Winnie53]

@JenniferG Your rational for what you're doing comes across as sound to me, though I continue to be hesitant about the no carb and very low carb diets because I believe it's important to eat a variety of fresh vegetables with all meals, a mix of raw and cooked. I read Dr. Bernstein's Diabetes Solution and started the diet within a few days of being re-diagnosed with type 2 diabetes early last year - (at the time, my late afternoon or early evening blood glucose was 282 mg/dL; A1c 9.9%). Not long after that I eliminated sugar, grains, and all highly processed, omega 6 rich, seed oils from my diet. He's my hero.

Initially, I decided to do the low carbohydrate ketogenic diet for a full year to see how far it got me. In January, I decided to extend it another year to give me more time to improve my gut health. I've made no definite decision regarding insulin or medication yet.

For now I'm investing my money into specific nutritional supplement strategies. Alpha Lipoic Acid in combination with digestive enzymes dropped my blood glucose levels an additional 10 - 20 mg/dL points. I also take a whole foods multi vitamin and mineral supplement, whole foods B-complex, whole foods vitamin C, D3, vitamin K2, magnesium citrate, fish oil, cod liver oil (for vitamin A), and CoQ10.

I fast 12 hours a day. Next I want to improve the health of my microbiome by taking probiotics and preparing and eating fermented foods. After that, I might begin doing some resistance training with weights. I walk regularly, often 3 miles. All of my chronic health conditions are stable or in remission now except my subclinical hyperthyroid, and I have no diabetic complications. I keep hoping if I find the right combination of strategies I'll one day heal my thyroid. It's a long shot, I know.

My other hope is that by eating only organic foods and animals, poultry, and fish that are fed their traditional diets, I'll reduce the toxic load on my body. I suppose at some point I'll resume losing weight and figure out how to begin detoxing my body. Perhaps I'll try doing some longer fasts. My peak weight was 180 pounds. I'm at 143 right now. If I could get down to 120 pounds, I think that would be a good weight for me. Building healthy fats back into my diet has been good, wish I'd done it years sooner.

I think Jennifer if you keep putting out on the forum what your goals are, you'll find like minded people who will support you. I'm glad you found your way here. Keep posting and reading. It's a great forum.

 

[JenniferG]

Well I'll probably have lots of questions for you Winne thanks. You are doing a lot of things I haven't had time to research yet, like the probiotics and other medicines. I also need to figure out my vitamin supplments. GOt the minerals in order with Concentrace Mineral Drops. Also, I eat lots of above ground non-starchy veggies as well. Eating about 70g of carbs lately per day. Lots of room for Veggies I was down to 30g but I think I do better at around 70g for now. Which is still low carb.. in a 2500 calorie weight loss diet.

 

[Neohdiver]

Oh yay, I found the study I was looking for... "Fasting Until Noon Triggers Increased Postprandial Hyperglycemia and Impaired Insulin Response After Lunch and Dinner in Individuals With Type 2 Diabetes: A Randomized Clinical Trial"

Daniela Jakubowicz, Julio Wainstein, Bo Ahren, Zohar Landau, Yosefa Bar-Dayan, Oren Froy
Diabetes Care 2015 Jul; dc150761.

http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/38/10/1820

Hmmm...

I'd like to see that study done with people whose diabetes is under control, and more bodies (it was done on a grand total of 22 people).

The fasting blood glucose was around 125, and the PP spike ranged from ~200 to over 300.

My personal experience is that fasting until mid-day decreases my PP BG change - but my BG also virtually never exceeds 140.

 

[JenniferG]

Oh yay, I found the study I was looking for... "Fasting Until Noon Triggers Increased Postprandial Hyperglycemia and Impaired Insulin Response After Lunch and Dinner in Individuals With Type 2 Diabetes: A Randomized Clinical Trial"

Daniela Jakubowicz, Julio Wainstein, Bo Ahren, Zohar Landau, Yosefa Bar-Dayan, Oren Froy
Diabetes Care 2015 Jul; dc150761.

http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/38/10/1820

Sorry I had missed this. Thanks!