How Low is Low, and is milk bad?

[Raspin]

H all,

I'm recently diagnosed type 2 and i'm on the newcastle diet. Have been for a week. I've lost 1/2 a stone so far and my blood sugar has gone from 18.1 on a fasting test on 1st of Jan, to 13.2 two days ago 3 hours after food. Yesterday it tested at 8.9, at the same time of day as the 13,2 two days before, and after having consumed exactly the same food, at the same time, as that day (a shake for breakfast and a soup for lunch). I'm happy and hopeful things are going the right way but had some questions for anyone able to offer any advise.

One thing I'm concerned about on this diet is milk. The diet says no dairy. I'm using asda meal replacement shakes with skimmed milk with each shake being 200 cals and 26g carb.

I was thinking i could sub the milk in the shake for water to avoid the 12g of carb from the 250 ml of milk but then the shake would be around half the calories. I would then need to find a way to make up the deficit of 200 calories a day (i have 2 shakes a day). So to make up the difference I thought maybe I could double the shake mix so it made up for the shortfall in calories but then thinking about it, 2 scoops of shake mix must account for 14g of the carb so doubling the mix but using water makes a shake with water now 28g )more than if i'd just made the standard shake with the mix. Kind of defeats the object.

With this in mind I looked at the optifast they used in the study. It has 20g of carb per serving (only a 6 grams less than the asda brand) and Slimfast (which many people say they are using) made with milk has 35g of carb (or 23g if made with water) per serving.

So there doesn't seem like any real benefit to removing the milk from the shakes i have in terms of carb and indeed it creates a problem in trying to make up the 200 calorie deficit in other ways. BUT, always a but, the newcastle diet says no dairy, but I'm wondering is there any other reason, other than carb, that i shouldn't be using skimmed milk other than carb concerns? Also, if anyone has any ideas how I can lower my carb intake but still maintain my 800 cals i'd really appreciate it.

On that same topic, with the 2 shakes and the 2 weight watchers soups i'm having each day (12g carb each) i'm taking in about 76 grams of carb plus however much carb is in the 200 cals of non starchy veg I have in the evening. Does that seem low enough for a low carb diet? I realise the diet works based primarily on low calorie eintake but I want to keep my carbs as low as pos for my BS.

Any help/advice really appreciated. This all new to me so any pointers or tips gratefully received.

Thanks, Raspin

 

[Squire Fulwood]

If by low you mean blood sugar then 4 is considered borderline.

As for the Atkins diet and milk I have not got a clue. I just eat according to what doesn't upset my meter readings and when I got that under control I lost some weight without trying.

 

[Raspin]

Hi Squire, I wasn't given any means to measure my blood sugar so I can only really do it irregularly when at the in-laws as my father in law is an insulin dependent type 2 diabetic. I'm trying to follow the Newcastle Diet but what i mean't was what is low in terms of a low carb diet.

`Though its interesting to know 4 is low for BS also.

Thanks, Raspin

 

[Lenny3]

I use Lactofree milk as it's lower in carbs, but also if you look at the difference between full fat and skimmed you will prob see that full fat has less carbs too.

 

[lessci]

If you go on the FAQ on the Biomedical website someone actually asked the Prof in charge of the study, because of the difficulty of getting the shakes which don't use milk and he said oit was ok to use them, but the weight loss may be a little slower due to the small increase in carbs. I think it also said if you wanted savoury you could use the build-up/complan soups as they are about the same caloric make-up/content

 

[Raspin]

Thanks Lessci, thats exactly the info i was after. Thanks Lenny didn't realise fatter milk would have lower carbs.

Much appreciated!

 

[Raspin]

I wonder why they didn't use fish in the Newcastle Diet.

I'm thinking if I had my shakes with water rather than milk they would only be 28 grams of carb a day rather than 52 and i could have some 0 carb fish like tuna, salmon or cod with my veg's at the end of the day, and reduce my carb intake from about 76 grams plus veg to 52 grams plus veg. The calories would still add up to 800 as i'd choose the right amount of no-carb fish to make up the deficit from removing the milk. Does this make sense?

I wonder if there is a problem adding protein to the diet.

Raspin

 

[noblehead]

From memory the lacto-free milk has around half the carbs of standard milk, I've tried it and taste wise it's really nice.

 

[Raspin]

Juts looked up Lactofree milk available in tesco. 7.5g carb per 250ml compared to 12g carb in skimmed milk with very similar calories. Using this milk my shakes would be only 21.5g carb as opposed to 26g (much more comparable to optifast at 20g carb but that costs the earth).

Still wondering about the zero carb fish though, I could have tuna or salmon for lunch instead of soup and that'd be even less carb but same cals.

Thanks Lenny3 and noblehead, defo gonna give this milk a go. I had never even heard of it .

 

[SamJB]

I sometimes have almond milk instead of cows milk. Next to no carbs in it. Tastier too, but doesn't work well in tea or coffee.

 

[douglas99]

If you're recently diagnosed, you shouldn't be trying to force your bs down quickly at the moment.

If you're on the Newcastle diet, the amount of carbs in the shakes shouldn't be an issue,
The Newcastle diet is a low calorie diet, you need to focus on that, rather than try to make it ultra low carb as well at the moment.

 

[craig81]

Maybe the reason for not having milk added is because of the high insulin response produced by dairy products? If you're insulin resistant then it makes sense to try and reduce how much insulin you produce so that your body then becomes more sensitive to its effects. So lower glycemic food combined with foods that don't trigger a higher insulin response would make sense in a type 2. Unfortunately there hasn't been much research into the insulin index in the past decade. Here's a wee link that explains a little about it:

http://www.mendosa.com/blog/?p=58

I also think it's useful information for type 1's, and other insulin dependent diabetics, to consider as it helps to explain why our blood sugars go higher, when we try to use an insulin to carbs ratio and fail to hit our individual targets despite doing everything seemingly right. The glucagon response to foods undoubtedly plays a big part in this.

 

[Raspin]

Hi,

Thanks samjb, that almond milk looks interesting and again better than the normal variety.

douglas99, forgive my ignorance, but why as a newly diagnosed type 2 should i not be trying to lower my BS. I would have thought I should get on it asap. I got a fasting BS of 18.1 about 10 days ago and this morning it was 8.4 so I was chuffed to see it had come down, and has done steadily.

I've only been taking 500g of metformin with an evening meal in that period, and i'm dieting too, but i'm supposed to start taking a second tablet (1000g total) from this weekend but i'm wondering whether i should as it seems to be coming down anyway. As i mentioned, when I was told to do that my fasting BS was 18.1 and I don't think the DB nurse really believed I was going to stick to my diet. I haven't deviated at all. I'm wondering if i should just continue as I am.

I've ordered myself a glucose tester which will arrive today so perhaps i'll leave it until i've been able to test pre meal, and 2 hours after to see what tings are more accurately and then decide if I up the dose to 1000. I'd really prefer to try to manage it on my own but don;t wanna be foolish.

Craig81, that's very interesting. It doesn't tell us whether we should or shouldn't be eating the high insulin response food, or whether doing so makes us more or less insulin resistant/sensitive but i think you are right, it would certainly explain why a study, such as the Newcastle study, would want to eliminate those variables from the diet of their test group so as to make their findings more credible and easier to interpret. That probably also explains why they didn't include fish as it states that is a high insulin response food too. I think i'm going to replace my skimmed milk with the lactofree as suggested, not introduce fish, complete the 8 weeks and see what happens.

Thanks for the info, Raspin

 

[douglas99]

Hi,

Thanks samjb, that almond milk looks interesting and again better than the normal variety.

douglas99, forgive my ignorance, but why as a newly diagnosed type 2 should i not be trying to lower my BS. I would have thought I should get on it asap. I got a fasting BS of 18.1 about 10 days ago and this morning it was 8.4 so I was chuffed to see it had come down, and has done steadily.

I've only been taking 500g of metformin with an evening meal in that period, and i'm dieting too, but i'm supposed to start taking a second tablet (1000g total) from this weekend but i'm wondering whether i should as it seems to be coming down anyway. As i mentioned, when I was told to do that my fasting BS was 18.1 and I don't think the DB nurse really believed I was going to stick to my diet. I haven't deviated at all. I'm wondering if i should just continue as I am.

I've ordered myself a glucose tester which will arrive today so perhaps i'll leave it until i've been able to test pre meal, and 2 hours after to see what tings are more accurately and then decide if I up the dose to 1000. I'd really prefer to try to manage it on my own but don;t wanna be foolish.

Craig81, that's very interesting. It doesn't tell us whether we should or shouldn't be eating the high insulin response food, or whether doing so makes us more or less insulin resistant/sensitive but i think you are right, it would certainly explain why a study, such as the Newcastle study, would want to eliminate those variables from the diet of their test group so as to make their findings more credible and easier to interpret. That probably also explains why they didn't include fish as it states that is a high insulin response food too. I think i'm going to replace my skimmed milk with the lactofree as suggested, not introduce fish, complete the 8 weeks and see what happens.

Thanks for the info, Raspin

Your body had go acclimatised to high blood sugars. This isn't a good thing, but you need to bring it back down slowly.
Good quote here -

"Warning if you have been holding very high blood glucose numbers, reduce your BG numbers and bring them down slowly over weeks or even months. This diet can reduce BG numbers from the twenties to non diabetic in days for some diabetics. This can cause serious eye damage that cannot be repaired. Remember this is not a race, take a little time to get it right. Also, if you are using powerful medication and a high carb diet, and reducing carbs drastically, quickly, your medication must be adjusted accordingly or serious hypo’s could occur. You must test, test and keep on testing until carb intake and med adjustment has levelled out."

 

[Raspin]

Hi Douglas99, thanks for that. Where is that quote from?

My fasting blood sugar was 18.1 originally and the DB nurse said that was really bad and we had to get it down or it could cause problems, such as eye problems and such. Damned if i do, damned if i don't. Bearing in mind what you say, then maybe i shouldn't take the 2nd metformin pill each day. At least not for a while until my bodies had a chance to adjust to lower levels?

I don;t see the DB nurse again for another 2 months but she seemed just focused on low numbers. i told her the diet i intended to follow and she seemed happy for me to do it as long as i was taking the metformin.

 

[douglas99]

I would never suggest not taking your meds.
Just get the figures down to the right level, then go for low carb if you want to.
As to milk, if you're on the Newcastle diet, you need to focus on more than carbs.

650 calories in 1L full fat, 47g carbs,36g fat
350 calories in 1L skimmed milk, 50g carbs, 1g fat

You will trade off 3g of carbs, for 300 calories if you swop.

And obviously, if you make a shake with water, not milk, you're altering the minerals and nutrients, and certainly need to take that into account.
As to the quote, it's on another website, which I can't post a link to, but it does come up on google.

 

[Solestar]

What about mixing cream, wither single or double, with water and using that as milk? The extra fat will up your calories but it contains zero carbs.

Julie

 

[douglas99]

What about mixing cream, wither single or double, with water and using that as milk? The extra fat will up your calories but it contains zero carbs.

Julie

Double cream, 16g carbs per litre, 500g of fat, *(mainly saturated) 4670 calories, (that's 11 tblspoons a day for a full 800 calories)

Single cream, 22g carbs per litre, 191g of fat, 1950 calories.


So skimmed milk has 3 times the carbs of cream, (still only 34g in a litre more), but cream has 13 times the calories, or 4320 more per litre.

 

[CollieBoy]

but skimmed still tastes like someone left the cow out in the rain <G>

 

[douglas99]

Oh, to answer the original question, why no dairy, it appears on a list with carbs, protein, and fat, so it looks like it's simply to restrict calories, and encourage you to save the allowance for "bulkier" veg for the remaining 200 calories, otherwise it would be gone in a glass of skimmed milk, or a tablespoon of cream.
As part of the calculated calories in a shake, it should be ok.