Interesting take on slimming groups...

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Indeed.

Always plain common sense from the Scots. This is why education has to feature in a multi pronged approach to the obesity/Diabetes epidemic.

Well spoken Jock.
Made the great point that these groups do the social support thing very well. This video then led me down a rabbit hole of people extolling the flexibility and efficacy of WW e.g. I can eat rubbish as long as I count my points but I keep falling of the waggon which kind of reinforced what the Scottish ex food and fags addict was saying.
I feel that the LCHF way of eating minimally processed foods and getting people off drugs makes it hard to be commercially viable. Fingers crossed that the VirtaHealth (online keto diet coaching plus clinical management) model goes well and gets expanded. I'd prefer that to the big food companies inventing keto junk food!

NicoleC1971 said:

Well spoken Jock.

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Seriously.

Cake culture. Good description.

“We shouldn’t be weighing people in public... it’s grotesque” My thought absolutely when I was offered a free course at a slimming group, on the day of my type 2 diagnosis!

Interesting but not surprising.

I have belonged to Weight Watchers here in Canada in the past and lost fairly substantial amounts of weight with them twice (last time 75 lbs, regained 50 lbs of it.) I did not reconsider them because I knew that their program was not designed for diabetes and they do not distinguish carbs from other foods. (Both my doctor and friend with Type 2 told me I needed to reduce my carbs to get better control of my blood sugar.)

They are quite expensive to join and attend (you have to pay for every meeting). The quality of their leaders varies considerably. I think that they are old fashioned, they are now so many other ways to track your food (I use an app Carb Master) and get support.

I also knew that to stay in business, they need to have the majority of their members not lose weight, only a bit of weight or lose and regain. Their program changes every few years so members will keep buying their materials.

As well, I disliked the processed foods (snacks) that they sell at meetings that aren't real foods. Although they talk about "real foods" (some members do come in with terrible diets), they also push these processed foods with the Weight Watchers label on them which is hypocritical IMHO.


I found when I was on Weight Watchers, I was hungry all the time and the weight came off more slowly than it is presently. I disliked the focus on goal weight. When you have a large amount of weight to lose, it is very discouraging to see that goal weight every single week on your weigh-in booklet. (Here in Canada, they are discreet about the weigh-ins, you don't see or hear other people's weigh-in amounts.) Although better blood sugar is my primary goal, my secondary goal is weight loss. I've haven't set a final goal yet, I prefer to focus on small, easy attainable goals rather than the large amount remaining.

Great video. I had one failed attempt at Weight Watchers - constantly hungry and several failed attempts at Slimming World: probably helped the diabetes along nicely.

I had 2 successful attempts at Weight Watchers, and lost a lot of weight both times. I can't say I was ever hungry or I would have given in. I reached "goal" both times, but the fact I had to do it twice is evidence that it doesn't work permanently. I wasn't diabetic then - it was way back in the 80s. I can't remember what sort of food we were allowed to eat then, other than definitely it was low fat and a lot of fruit.

I'm currently trying Wight Watchers online ( or WW as it's now known). I tried Slimming World a couple of weeks ago and after one meeting decided it wasn't for me, along with the fact that pasta rice & potatoes formed a lot of the meals most people ate and they were "free foods" to be consumed as much as you liked.... that was never going to work for me, so I signed up to WW online.

Everything other than veg is basically accountable, and the difference is it teaches you portion control - once you've used your allocated points for the day that's it! My aim is not long term but more as a kick start. I'll be honest, at times I have felt slightly hungry, but that's because I'm adapting to smaller portions of food. Week one I lost 5lbs without much effort. I think most people accept that slimming clubs don't generally work long term, but I do think that's the fault of the people doing them. Like any diet, you only get out what you (don't) put in.

seanj67 said:

I'm currently trying Wight Watchers online ( or WW as it's now known). I tried Slimming World a couple of weeks ago and after one meeting decided it wasn't for me, along with the fact that pasta rice & potatoes formed a lot of the meals most people ate and they were "free foods" to be consumed as much as you liked.... that was never going to work for me, so I signed up to WW online.

Everything other than veg is basically accountable, and the difference is it teaches you portion control - once you've used your allocated points for the day that's it! My aim is not long term but more as a kick start. I'll be honest, at times I have felt slightly hungry, but that's because I'm adapting to smaller portions of food. Week one I lost 5lbs without much effort. I think most people accept that slimming clubs don't generally work long term, but I do think that's the fault of the people doing them. Like any diet, you only get out what you (don't) put in.

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"Fault"? In terms of people with T2, calories (or points) are pretty irrelevant.

seanj67 said:

I think most people accept that slimming clubs don't generally work long term, but I do think that's the fault of the people doing them. Like any diet, you only get out what you (don't) put in.

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So says everyone ever who is starting a diet. Even when it is their 6th time round the merry-go-round.

It is just human nature to think that this time, this diet, this year, things will be different, and this time I will make long term changes that will allow it all to work perfectly and I will have a new life, all slim and sleek and under control and everything.

Trouble is, because we are all human, we are also humanly fallible, and the fundamental flaw isn't the fact that the diet doesn't work, or that we don't work hard enough, or anything else. It is that our own bodies have a hormone system that will, sooner or later, trump any will power we can throw at it. Unless we choose a way of eating that aligns with and complements our hormones, we will regain the weight, or lead a strange food half life of constant control, number crunching, and mild obsession. And even then, the odds are that one day we will find ourselves with an extra tyre all over again.

As you can tell, I subscribe to the diets don't work thinking, because I have over the last few decades seen that to be the case. In myself and others. Anyone who thinks a diet works because the weight comes off, and stays off for an arbitrary number of months, is underestimating their own body's capacity to blindside them.

Adopting reasonable, sustainable, hormonally harmonious lifestyle changes is, to me, the only way to go.

Brunneria said:

So says everyone ever who is starting a diet. Even when it is their 6th time round the merry-go-round.

As you can tell, I subscribe to the diets don't work thinking, because I have over the last few decades seen that to be the case.

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As do I. My reason for trying the "club" was that I wanted to to get some parameters in place for a short while. Left to my own devices I eat too much, I always have. I figured that having a tracker and some accountability for a while would perhaps help me look at portion sizes etc. It's would be so easy for me to say "Oh, I'll just cut down" but I'm visual, seeing my progress - or otherwise on the app helps me. If in a few weeks it's not I will re think. Ideally I'd like to do Vegetarian/LCHF/Keto as that's great for my BG, but I just wasn't losing any weight. Perhaps I should have tried harder (which is what a Slimming World commandant..sorry consultant once told me when I had remained the same weight one week, I also learned that it's not advisable to ask in group about the sugar content in their low fat products.... they shrivel up and smoke. )

I completely agree about human nature. I like the quote from Tony Robbins “Change happens when the pain of staying the same is greater than the pain of change.” - I'm still working on it's application.

Most diet clubs tell you that theirs isn't a diet, it's a way of eating/lifestyle change , but that I guess is an attempt to make it sound more appealing. We're all on a diet of some description. If you want to read some interesting yet sometimes amusing digs at the diet industry - in particular SW, Google "Rebelfit and Slimming World"...

Having posted before in this thread, I'm not going to repeat myself but for many obese people, Weight Watchers doesn't work long term, it didn't work for me (more than twice, I only lost weight with it twice but had at least 4 periods in my life where I joined.)

The basis behind it is faulty. It assumes that losing weight is a merely a matter of overeating remedied by willpower. "Eat less, move more". Yes, there are some obese people who are overeaters but there are also slim overeaters. (This belief is what lies behind fat shaming, all obese people are assumed to be weak willed overeaters.)

It doesn't take into account that many obese people are insulin resistant (often many years before their diagnosis of diabetes. ) have a metabolism that is very efficient at storing fat. It doesn't explain why some members of my family can eat anything they want, as much as they want and never gain weight whereas others struggled. My mom has told me that when I was young, the neighbours wondered if I ate more than my slim sister. My mom told them no, I ate less and had a better diet! My mom even took me to the doctor to tell him that there was something wrong with my metabolism for this reason. She was told that they could not treat a growing child. (Good thing because the treatment then was amphetamines!) The same dynamic exists with my slim father and his obese brother.

My doctor and I had a discussion about this at my followup a couple of days ago. She told me that low fat diets don't work long term. I told her that eating low carb was much easier and that for the first time in my life, I had normal hunger and how on Weight Watchers I was constantly hungry, craving sugar and carbs. She now has 2 of us in her practice who have lost weight (my best friend has maintained a 98 lb loss for 1 1/2 years, I'm still losing) and both of us have seen substantial reductions in our hba1cs and daily levels. My friend who started with a hb1ac of 26%, - 206.7) now it is 5.0% - 31.1) at her last checkup (elevated because she had to have a shot of steroid in one knee), and has discontinued all of her meds except for 20 units of insulin at bedtime for dawn phenomena - she was on 3 meds and insulin.) I started out with a hb1ac of 7% - 53, after 3 months, it is now 5.6%. - 37.7. I've lost 40 lbs so far and I'm still losing (faster than I ever did on Weight Watchers.) BTW, my doctor is now recommending low carb eating to all her Type 2 patients.

I was a low carb skeptic for a long time. I thought it was unhealthy, very limited diet consisting of just meat and butter, no vegetables (it's often portrayed in the media this way.). That's totally wrong, I eat a lot of vegetables, just not the starchy ones (potatoes, sweet potatoes and corn) and I'm careful with carrots and beets (small amounts occasionally). Seeing the experience of my best friend first hand who initially struggled because she followed the recommended standard plate method with 1/4 plate carbs convinced me to go immediately to low carb eating after getting the diagnosis.

In my view it is not normal to weigh and measure, I am not aware of any other animals that behaviourally do this (serious point, when full some creatures bury excess).

Calories in and out is only part of the equation, foods such as protein burn more calories than carbs, 'neat' practices burn additional calories, sleep, cortisol, standing etc all add to the mix as does the epoch effect of exercise. Unfortunately people believe the human body is a closed loop system which is no where near correct. Sometimes once leaness is achieved lean weight gain is desirable to increase bmr, I am not sure chasing weight loss transitions into this - I would rather be 80kg with 65 kg lean mass than 75 kg with 50 kg lean mass.

Meat and 2 veg with an occasional treat was a good idea. Yesterday I grudgingly had to give my dog some of my Tuna, as I had surf and turf and was stuffed eating to satiety. I will only ever weigh and measure ingredients for a dessert which relies on that method.

I have just decided to rethink and reboot. I've just cancelled WW. I'm paying to be a member of Diet Doctor and have done for a long time now, and the MFP app has all the benefits of the WW app. so I can save my £12 a month subs to WW.

I have a kindle full of books on Keto/LCHF and access to the great forums here...and the likes of Keto Christina on Youtube who is motivating. I pulled my 3 month BG's off my meter yesterday and they were higher than I wanted - I kinda decided then WW wasn't probably going to help with that, but LCHF would from past experience definitely help.

I will just have to try harder/be smarter with LCHF. Best get my ass back over to that forum them.....

For tracking software, I use Carb Master (the free Android version) on my phone You can set your own targets.

(It is American so it subtracts fibre from total carbs to get net carbs. We Canadians do the same. I understand in the UK, this work has already been done so you probably should omit fibre when you add custom foods.)