Is a Atkins Diet Dangerous?

Hana

There is data and studies that have shown low carbing is linked to kidney stones, osteoporosis and the fact that low carbers HAVE to supplement to maintain a healthy nutritional status. Your own diet was very low in , if my memory serves me - fat, calcium and vit c? I havent got the refernces but the studies were from around 5 years ago.

Anecdoatally I have often found chol levels have gone up following it!

We have very little data about the long term effects , the trials are small and we will never really know the real truth about atkins and Bernstein and their state of health. A previous poster has also highlighted the fact that atkins also made a fortune!!! So he really was a clever man!

Dietitians have to audit their work , I have to in my clinics and I have data about pts who have lost wt and kept it off. I also audit HBA1 levels and I am getting pts in the 5s but they are not low carbing or on meds. It does of course depend on motivation - there are some who will never do what you ask !

The BBC diet trials monitored pts for a year or more and found that those who were monitored did the best. In most dietetic depts they do not have time to do this as the very clinical needs of special care babies, ITU , post surgery etc require more attention . We need more dietitians in the NHS to work in a preventative and clinical role.

We also need some long term trials - the idea on the other forum is ridiculous - do you think medics will look at data you provide with any credibility. There is no pre diagnosis data on diet etc !

I am still thinking about my masters research - I would like to look at what diabetics are actually eating - my experience shows that people are often eating more than they think.

Ally
my diet isn't high in total fats, but since I don't eat very much of anything, Ido have a highish proportion of fat. I also have a total cholesterol of 3.0, which is almost low enough to be a risk factor. and that's without statins. Ieat l plenty of fresh vegetables every day. They make up the bulk of what I do eat, so I don't think my vitamin C can be too bad.
Nevertheless, I have lost about 19kg, which I never achieved on Weight Watchers all those years ago when i could afford it. I'm pretty fit and have plenty of stamina.
I can keep to low carbs, although I do sometimes give in to temptwation. Then I find I can manage a TINY bit of whatever it is I fancy. Self control has become a pattern.I couldn't do that on a low cal diet.
I can look up the study which showed that low carb has a low attrition rate.
Hana

If one reads the link catherinecherub gave, you will note in this, I think no3 (fat and cholesterol), that Dr Atkins REPEATLY said in intervirews, that even though he had followed his diet for decades that he had NO BLOCKED ARTIRES, which I understand to mean that he had no fatty build up which caused a problem, both his widow and personal physcian conformed that in fact even they were aware that he had corornary artery blockages!!! Whether this did or didn't play a part in his death isn't the point, the fact that he sold a thoery and a diet that didn't fur up the arteries, is some what untrue...

But we have seen this in our this forum, and low carb advocate, who claims to have controlled turned around his weight, diabetic control, and that of lowering his cholestoral with in weeks, to healthy non-diabetic status etc etc... But last year he had to have stents fitted to open up furred clog up arteries. ah you may proclaim, they were furred up before he started his low carb diet, so the damaged was done before he started..

Problem I have with getting my head around that one, is that signs of ill health really didn't come until after he had been low carbing for over a year, which if Atkins et el, are correct with there theories, and those who proclaim damaged was done before change of diet... Then there wouldn't have been any more bad fats furring the arteries up futher to require medical intervention or if claims that some make concerning reversals of medical conditions are to be believed, the low carb lifestyle he followed would have reversed his condition and he wouldn't have needed a operation!!!

Hanna

I would check your research concerning low carbing, one of the biggest problems that researchers have when trying to create a clinical study on low carbing for any length of time, is the fall out rate of the low carbers, one of the longest studies carried out 2 years, part of it's conclusion was that due to the high drop out rate of low carbers, part of it's conclusion couldn't be made because there wasn't enough data due to this drop out rate to conclude!!!

But there again, any piece of research that doesn't proclaim that low carb at Atkins style is the best, and healthiest diet going is dismissed and trashed... Strange that a 12 months study that expresses concerns over the long term effects aren't long enough etc etc, but a Atkins et el, low carb diet is the bee's knees' greatest thing ever carried out over 6 weeks period, will be waved and promoted as conclusive proof...

Hi Jo

How are you - must send my new msn addy - been having problems!!

allyx

I don't know why we bother.

Hana knows the answers better than all the trained experts.

catherinecherub said:

Have a look at this website and follow the links on the left including personal stories,

http://www.atkinsdietalert.org/advisory.html

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If you go to this website, The Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine and read the experts including the American Cancer Society and the American Heart Association and also read the personal stories as encountered by people who used the Atkins diet who are we to believe? I am on the side of the experts and cannot believe that a forum member with no medical qualifications knows better.

So what should I be watching for? Kidney function test with a bad result? Raised "bad" cholesterol levels? Regaining my weight loss? Increasing blood glucose levels? Increasing Blood Pressure? Mineral and vitamin deficiencies? I know where I was when I was Dx'd and that will be my bench mark. All normal except Vitamin D, weight, BP and BGLs.
I will restart diabetes meds if I spiral upwards with my BGLs. I won't however restart statins until they show that women are living longer as a result of taking them and what the healthy level really is for women.
I test. I test for a second time. If I really love the food I test a third time. If that food doesn't "behave" in MY system, then it doesn't have a right to be in MY system. It might be harmless in yours and I envy you if it is.
I am forever grateful to the likes of Atkins and Bernstein who made the connection that raised insulin levels cause damage to my system and researched which foods are most likely to raise mine. Saved me a lot of time and damaging raised blood glucose levels. (I still know that I can eat green mangoes and paw paws, so there! No, it didn't work today with the under ripe nectarine which took me to 7.3) .
I realise now how individual it is as tonight I had Easy Cheesy Chicken, Spaghetti Squash, Butternut Pumpkin, coleslaw in Dark Cherry Diet Jelly (awesome) followed by Coconut Impossible Pie (made with lupin flour) and Strawberry Ice Cream ( just full fat cream, sweetener, strawberries and egg yolks) and an hour later I was 4.9. I love tasty, interesting food. But I really miss the processed carbs and if they would give me the same result I would have them back in my life in a flash.
I will always be looking at the pertinant figures in my blood tests. If they give the professionals cause for concern then I will re-think my directions.

I hope Hana doesn't mind me jumping in here; but I thought I'd just address some of these points.

ally5555 said:

Hana

There is data and studies that have shown low carbing is linked to kidney stones, osteoporosis and the fact that low carbers HAVE to supplement to maintain a healthy nutritional status. Your own diet was very low in , if my memory serves me - fat, calcium and vit c? I havent got the refernces but the studies were from around 5 years ago.

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OK, so no relation to CVD or CHD then? But on kidney stones, osteoporosis and need to supplement there are studies. Here is the pubmed main website please refer me to the published reports on those studies http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/

And in particular why do low carbers have to supplement? Who is saying that?

ally5555 said:

Anecdoatally I have often found chol levels have gone up following it!

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Er, does this sound familiar - "...it would have no credibility as it is anecdoatal as well !!" Well that would be you 2 days ago. Shall we discount that statement for it's lack credibility then?

ally5555 said:

We have very little data about the long term effects , the trials are small and we will never really know the real truth about atkins and Bernstein and their state of health. A previous poster has also highlighted the fact that atkins also made a fortune!!! So he really was a clever man!

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That's very true, unless you read what was posted, so once again I've set it out below. By the way do you think that the low-fat hypothesis is unconnected with money? How much money do statins make every year I wonder? And lastly is it bad that Atkins was clever? Would you prefer your physicians to be half-wits?

A 20 Year Study Finds No Association Between Low-Carb Diets And Risk Of Coronary Heart Disease

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 095850.htm

And just to clarify (my italics)

The researchers, Halton, senior author Frank Hu, associate professor of nutrition and epidemiology at HSPH, and colleagues, looked at data collected over a 20-year period from 82,802 women in the Nurses' Health Study, a long-term study that began in 1976.

That's a large and long study and as we keep on being told CHD is the primary cause of death for us and the primary worry I think it's very significant.

ally5555 said:

Dietitians have to audit their work , I have to in my clinics and I have data about pts who have lost wt and kept it off. I also audit HBA1 levels and I am getting pts in the 5s but they are not low carbing or on meds. It does of course depend on motivation - there are some who will never do what you ask !

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I'm not sure of the point being made here; but your HbA1c's in their 5s are of course excellent, but they are Type 2 so their level of pancreatic function could as much be the answer as the advice they receive from you.

ally5555 said:

The BBC diet trials monitored pts for a year or more and found that those who were monitored did the best. In most dietetic depts they do not have time to do this as the very clinical needs of special care babies, ITU , post surgery etc require more attention . We need more dietitians in the NHS to work in a preventative and clinical role.

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That sounds sensible and I couldn't agree more; it's just the nature of the preventative advice that is given.

ally5555 said:

We also need some long term trials - the idea on the other forum is ridiculous - do you think medics will look at data you provide with any credibility. There is no pre diagnosis data on diet etc !

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See above; why then, when it seems recognised that the best diabetic control comes from those patients that monitor and take an active interest in their control, do you think it is 'ridiculous' to try and express their findings in a coherent way? What is being presented on the low-carb forum is before and after blood tests (done by our GP's). How is that ridiculous?

ally5555 said:

I am still thinking about my masters research - I would like to look at what diabetics are actually eating - my experience shows that people are often eating more than they think.

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Are you a student Ally?

I'm confused by the sentiment here because in the paragraph above you are discounting as ridiculous diabetics talking about what they are eating and the verifiable consequences of that (in their blood test results) - and then you say that's the very area you are interested in? How can you do research without listening to the subjects of your research?

Dillinger

*edited to clarify and correct typo's

Anyone that has tried The Atkins Approach KNOWS that it is safe. All the scare mongering is to stop people that would like to try it doing so.

Why is there so much negativity towards it? Could it because it works?!? Or could it be that the fact that it DOES work proves that the low fat **** we've been fed all these years IS incorrect. And that would make all of the "experts" that have made a living from the low fat myth WRONG.

Time will definitely tell.

mm - any one who works in the field will know that many people have problems with atkins - constipation, bad breath and low energy levels. Also the rise in LDL and total cholesterol that I and may dietetic colleaugues have seen - just for starters.

Boredom and the fact it is repetitive - I have been asking pts have they followed it at all - yes alot have but given up after 3-6 months.

I find in practice a simple healthy eating plan works - it is what I eat so I know it works !

No I am not really a student , I am a Dietitian with many years experience but I am doing a further masters degree

ally5555 said:

I find in practice a simple healthy eating plan works - it is what I eat so I know it works !

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I hadn't realised that you had diabetes too Ally! Eating with diabetes is so different to non-diabetes isn't it?
I would have to be one of those that did not experience constipation, bad breath and low energy levels while eating an Atkins type of diet. I am a volunteer firefighter too and might have to go bush for days and days driving a tanker up and down mountains so my energy levels are what my life and my crew depends on at times. If there was a hint that I was not up to the task I would never endanger people's lives.
Agree without argument that initially in the early months of weight loss/Atkins/Bernstein diet, my cholesterol levels went up. Wasn't that because my body fat had to be processed and eliminated somehow? Now, my GP cannot fault it and indeed says it is excellent. No weight loss happening now. I have a BMI of 24 and that is where I want to stay.

Patch said:

Anyone that has tried The Atkins Approach KNOWS that it is safe. All the scare mongering is to stop people that would like to try it doing so.

Why is there so much negativity towards it? Could it because it works?!?

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Dr Atkins suffered a heart attack and died a year later weighing 17 stone, so his diet clearly didnt work for him did it, although he did make a fortune from it so I guess it did work after all.

Did he? :roll:

My reading says this has some elements of truth Sid.
He was supposed to have fallen on an icy pavement and cracked his head and never regained conciousness. He bloated while on life support as shown in the records of his entry weight which was not anything like his weight on death. I wasn't present so cannot verify it as fact.

Patch said:

Did he? :roll:

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Yes, google it :roll:

Noblehead

Yes you are right indeed, the husband in question had other complex medical health issuse, such as already had at least one heart attack amoungst other things, so adive to start the diet should have never been given within the context of this forum, and anybody with a noggin of sense would have seen that in this persons case, they really needed to work with there HCP who were privvy to his medical records, understood the interactions that his verious medications and medical conditions...

As to DR Atkins, as I pointed out earlier, he would proclaim within interviews, that he was had no cononary artery blockages, even though he had followed his diet for decades... After his death it was discovered that in fact he did have cononary artery blockages, which one must assume he was aware of, as it seems that his widow and his personal doctor were aware of this fact, before he died.. It's no suprise that there was much media debate but the fact still remains, if Dr Atkins theory was so right, why was his arteries blocked?

But concern has to be, that these diets are sold as a type of cure, as we see in the context of diabetes a method of controlling ones blood glucose... For a type 1 diabetic, they know that they have to inject insulin as they don't produce any of there own... Ao it only effects the amount of insulin they may inject for control..

For type 2 diabetes, the sale pitch is aimed at two places, weight loss and avoiding medication and it's the latter which could be the dangerous part for the T2 indeed... The sales pitch makes the diabetic believe that by following the theory they can avoid medication... At what point does one then decide that the 'diet' isn't working fully and medication support is required to ensure good control, I've seen it many times where people push to reduce there carb intake even futher, then look at to reducing there protien intake (as this turn into glucose) as the diet works etc etc, what dangers are posed with there health at this point, or those that find they actually losing more weight than is healthy for them to lose...

jopar said:

As to DR Atkins, as I pointed out earlier, he would proclaim within interviews, that he was had no cononary artery blockages, even though he had followed his diet for decades... After his death it was discovered that in fact he did have cononary artery blockages, which one must assume he was aware of, as it seems that his widow and his personal doctor were aware of this fact, before he died.. It's no suprise that there was much media debate but the fact still remains, if Dr Atkins theory was so right, why was his arteries blocked?

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Where do we begin here? How about with the 2004 Telegraph article posted by Nigel.

"Yes, explained his widow, Dr Atkins did have "a cardiac arrest" in 2002. In medical terms, though, this was not a "heart attack" because it was not caused by MI. It was caused by cardiomyopathy, a weak heart condition, and that was caused by a virus.

Getting independent confirmation of all this was not easy, and not just because of how much of the $40 billion-a-year diet industry was at stake.

Dr Tim Bowker, the associate medical director of the British Heart Foundation, for example, stressed - repeatedly - that he had not seen the medical notes himself and that medical ethics prevented him from commenting on an individual's case.

The furthest he would go was to agree that cardiomyopathy could be viral. It could cause the "congestive heart failure" mentioned in the medical report, and that would indeed cause fluid retention. "

So, no 'clogged arteries' (which is by the way not how Myocardial infarction works - it is most commonly as a result of the blockage of arteries as a result of the rupture of an atherosclerotic plaque).

But why let facts get in the way eh?

And in the words of Ally; even it he had suffered an acute MI and died it would only be anecdotal and would be 'ridiculous' to pay any attention to that as a general indicator. Again, as we've seen elsewhere no studies can show a link between diet and CHD.

So, where is the evidence that the Atkins diet is dangerous? It appears 'everyone' knows it is but no one knows why they know this.

Dillinger

Strange isn't it Dillinger, you read that article and conclude "So, no 'clogged arteries' " I read the same article and conclude that if I were Mrs Atkins and with a multi million dollar business at stake I would simply make Dr Atkins medical records public if I had nothing to hide. Perhaps I'm just being cynical

Did you read all of this article Dillinger?

http://www.atkinsdietalert.org/advisory.html

Don't forget about all the low carb junk food that is pedalled in Atkins name. I read the ingredients of the products and the description of "sweet, sexy science" to advertise them. You'd be better off having a small portion of dark chocolate. We keep hearing that a low carb diet is satiating so why would these products be necessary?