Is a Atkins Diet Dangerous?

[IanD]

OFF TOPIC but relevant.

I took statins for a very short while and questioned my GP as to why I had so many side effects. He concurred that they can cause problems and took me off them. It seems ludicrous to me that people will carry on taking them and feeling unwell and do nothing about it.

My wife takes 40 mg simvastatin every night. Her last chol was low at 3+. She takes it because it was prescribed years ago. She had a heart attack in 2004, & is now in good shape, active, & swimming 40 lengths (1 Km) most days.

BUT she has intense shoulder pain with some movements & is in pain lying in bed. I questioned the Dr about simv & he assured us that the probability of husband & wife suffering the same side effects from the same drug were extremely unlikely. He said, according to the manufacturers data, only 1 in 10,000 suffer any side effects from simv.

She is afraid NOT to take the prescribed simv, or even to do as I did, stop taking it for a time to see if there would be an improvement.

We do trust our Dr - the practice has an excellent reputation, & we have been with them for over 30 years.

 

[jopar]

IanD

Whether your wifes shoulder pain is or isn't due to taking statins, I couldn't say but you have just described my frozen shoulder (both sides now) and I don't take statins of any type, so can rule this out from causing it in my case only... Has she tried some of the others statins type meds?

I've being diabetic for over 20 years, I've been seen at least 5 different dietititans, been under 3 different diabetic consultans, and couldn't say how many diabetic nurses I've seen during this time too many clinics.. So feel quailified to make comment how I see what they promote.. (apart from my first consultant, long story) I've had nothing but exellent care.. I've never been told by any of my diabetic team that I must or must not eat any particular foods, my dietitians have worked and advised on a 'healthy balanced' diet but the only time an prescribed amount of carbohydrates been used, at dignoses, and back in those days, insulin regime was very regimental, with carb exchanges and 2 jabs of insulin a day... When you got dignosed with T1 diabetes, the dietitian would work out your exchanges for meals and snacks per day... You gave the information on what foods/meals and snacks you normally ate and the portions sizes you enjoyed, they then crunched the numbers..

In my case I was in my 20's with no weight issuses that needed to be addressed, my first allocation was a total of 18 exhanges a day=180g of carbs, which is 50g below the RDA, The following week this was reduced down to 13 exchanges= 130g of carbs per day, because I couldn't consume the quanitity of carbs on a regular bases, so now eating 100g per day less than the RDA of 230g for an adverage female (of which I fitted into the pegion hole) no comments was or has been made that I should increase my carb content by any of the dietitians that I have met over the years.. Plenty of info of ensuring that I am eating a 'balanced diet' covering all my bases, even with roasting my spuds in beef dripping, eating full fat cheese and using full fat milk..

My present consultant stood in front of over 50 diabetics and partnes, and proclaimed, if you don't want the bread roll with your salad at lunch time, you don't have to, we will show you how.. He was discussing our pending DAFNE course expalining what it was all about, now I don't call that promoting carbs with every meal nor insisting having 230/300g of carbs per day.. Don't forget not all diabetic will go on DAFNE, and a lot of T2's may not attend the DESMOND version, but the ethics behind these two courses are impledimented through the diaebtic department, and the local surgeries, where all the DSN are linked to the main hospital clinic for support, information and training...

Yes at times I've and my diabetic team have had to work to reslove a problem when its risen, but there again, it's 20+ years down the line, my body is 20+ years older, and my lifestyle is a lot different same as every body else, this happens diabetic or not.. We've the help and advice I've got from my diabetic team, and my management I'm doing fine with no complications, and actually now weigh less than I did all though years ago, perhaps my mum was right, she saw my diet etc, and utter the words, 'oh well you never be fat then'

 

[IanD]

Thanks Jopar for your comments. Ann is very reluctant to do or try anything without Drs advice.

She's had one heart attack & doesn't want another, so keeps on with the prescribed medication. She is not prepared to try glucosamine, which I found essential for tennis elbow & other potential problems. I'm currently free of such problems, but when I ran out of glucosamine, they began to come back. I am prepared to consider alternatives. I take a multivitamin/mineral supplement, in case my diet leaves a deficiency. Another longstanding treatment for frozen shoulder is wearing a vest with sleeves. My father adopted it & I wear one except in very hot weather.

 

[phoenix]

Ian, re Simvastatin.
The probability of muscle damage on statins is low and as others have said there are possible alternative reasons . Most people who take statins have no problems and there is a lot of evidence that people with a previous CVD history gain significantly from taking them so I'm sure your wife is right to follow her docs advice and continue to take them. Simvastatin is not the only statin though.

There is some new evidence showing that the probability of muscle problems is higher than previously reported for those on high doses.(twice your wifes dose and the numbers are still very small).
The FDA released this new warning a few days ago.
'there is an increased risk of muscle injury in patients taking the highest approved dose of the cholesterol-lowering medication, Zocor (simvastatin) 80 mg, compared to patients taking lower doses of simvastatin and possibly other drugs in the "statin" class.'

http://www.fda.gov/Drugs/DrugSafety...ormationforPatientsandProviders/ucm204882.htm

The statement says that people suffering from the problem have an increased output of
creatine kinase. My doc does a yearly blood test for this anyway. Perhaps your doc already does it? or you could discuss the statement with him and ask for it? ... though I think that any damage however caused may increase CK. I had a test done a couple of days after running a marathon and it was raised, but had looking it up discovered that the marathon could have caused it. The test was repeated a month later and it was fine.

 

[Sid Bonkers]

You say "so many depts are not promoting this so called high carb approach." That is anecdotal. I get the impression that very few contributors to this forum have met them.

It could just be that the majority of people who were given this advice just dont go on about it in ever post Ian, I was given very good advice about portion control and low GI foods no one ever mentioned eating loads of starchy carbs.

Perhaps some people hear what they want to hear

 

[CarbsRok]

You say "so many depts are not promoting this so called high carb approach." That is anecdotal. I get the impression that very few contributors to this forum have met them.

It could just be that the majority of people who were given this advice just dont go on about it in ever post Ian, I was given very good advice about portion control and low GI foods no one ever mentioned eating loads of starchy carbs.

Perhaps some people hear what they want to hear

I agree 100% that some people only hear what they want to hear.
I have never once in the 45 years of having diabetes been told to eat loads of starchy carbs either.
I have also lived in 5 different counties. The advice has always been carb control and the type of carb is very important. (There's a joker on another forum that seems to think everyone but him lives on fish and chips, factory made pies, cakes, biscuits, ready meals and other dross.) Now if he was brought up on this trash and then brought up his own family on it I can see why he has a major problem with carbs. But saying this it surely is better to go and educate yourself on what carbs really are and learn to live a full and healthy life, with healthy carbs in moderation.

 

[catherinecherub]

There are some who say that they have tried the GI approach and that it didn't work for them. It may be that they did not use portion control or test all low G.I. foods. I say this because although a food is listed as low GI, it still has to be tested as indivuals have different reactions.

 

[phoenix]

There are some who say that they have tried the GI approach and that it didn't work for them. It may be that they did not use portion control or test all low G.I. foods. I say this because although a food is listed as low GI, it still has to be tested as indivuals have different reactions.

I think it is also because there are some things that seem as if they ought to be low gi but aren't.
eg Sainsburys Basmati rice has a gi of 48, Sainsburys easycook Basmati rice has a gi of 69. People are told to eat wholegrain cereals but most of them (shredded wheat, weetabix etc) still have very high gis. Most individual brands haven't got tests so you have to test for yourself. Cooking methods and what you eat things with also alter gi. Its a lot to get your head round early in diagnosis. Cutting things out may seem the simpler option, especially when strips are limited.
As to portion size, portion sizes that are considered 'normal' are getting bigger and are often quite large, especially with things like rice and pasta. I still weigh these things.

 

[catherinecherub]

There are so many websites that give different G.I. values and this also creates a problem. I was recommended a very good book by my HCP.

 

[hanadr]

The RDA for carbohydrates is currently 130g/d However, there is no scientific study to back this up. In fact there is no scientific study which can give verifiable evidence that any dietary carbohydrate is necessary at all. The 130g was arrived at , by doing some iffy calculation, coming up with 100 and adding 30% as a "Safety margin"
No-one has been able to show consistently and verifyably that cutting carbs to 0 has any harmfful effects. In fact low carb ketogenic diets have been used as treatments for intractable epilepsy in children, where nothing else has worked.
Hana

 

[Sid Bonkers]

In fact there is no scientific study which can give verifiable evidence that any dietary carbohydrate is necessary at all.

No-one has been able to show consistently and verifyably that cutting carbs to 0 has any harmfful effects.

So you keep telling us Hana, and I accept that a low carb diet is safe in the short term but my cardiologist still insists that saturated fats are bad for me. Who should I believe?

 

[jopar]

The RDA for carbohydrates is currently 130g

The RDA is actually 230g for females, 300g for males and Children (5-10) is 220g!!!

Can you explain what this figure is all amount..

I know what your figures are about but many others will not..


or is it a case that yet again, low carbers are twisting fact, figures and information?

 

[phoenix]

The 130g carb minimum recommendation that Hana refers to derives from a committee whose purpose was to advise the US and Canadian governments. There is a huge amount of detail in the report as to how and why the minimum recommendation for carbs was calculated. I certainly don't find it 'iffy'.
It is fully referenced and many of the references are available to check online. (though it does take some persistance to find them)
http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=10490&page=275

GDA seems to be a semi official term used in the UK designed to be 'consumer friendly' and gives an average figure this is , as Jopar says, 230g carb for women and 300g carb for men, it is based on being 47% of energy intake for the 'average' man or woman. GDAs like this are very general and don't take into account age or activity level . The UK has its own version of the US report (COMA) but that is an HMSO document and not available online.
http://www.fdf.org.uk/publicgeneral/gdas_science_Jul09.pdf

Children on ketogenic diets for epilepsy (high fat, adequate protein and low carb) even though carefully supervised with very precise diets have had problems with bone demineralisation ie back to worries about osteoporosis .
A six year study at John Hopkins university showed of 28 patients, 6 experienced fractures( Groesbeck 2006) .Morbidly Obese children on a similar diet were also found to have experienced bone loss.( Willi 1998)

 

[graham64]

Lets loook at the benefits that can be derived from a low carb diet for epileptics, I'm sure that when all the medications have failed, Low Carb has got to be an option.

children· Trial shows seizures can be cut by more than 50%
· Scientists still unsure how ketogenic regime works

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2008/ ... alresearch

Conclusions: A modified Atkins diet appears to demonstrate preliminary efficacy for adults with intractable epilepsy, especially in those who lost weight. Considering the rapid response in those who improved, but somewhat high discontinuation rate, a 2-month trial period may be adequate to assess for efficacy.

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/jour ... 1&SRETRY=0

Graham

 

[IanD]

130 g carb needed per day?

In discussion with the tech dept of DUK, when I asked about the need of glucose from carbs for proper bodily function (including brain) I was advised that 130 g was the daily glucose requirement. They did not justify glucose from carbs. What they did say, was that if our blood glucose is in the normal range, then we are getting enough.

As a 10-year diabetic on 3x500 mg MF, eating up to about 100g carb from veg, fruit & bran, plus meat cheese & nuts, but no starchy carbs, my BG ranges from about 4.4 to about 8. Energy demands often result in slightly increased BG from presumably fat reserves.

I submit that the amount of daily carb actually needed is a secondary calculation. What we need is adequate food to maintain our BG at a normal level. Starchy carbs are NOT the only source of blood glucose.

 

[Synonym]

Eating to your meter while having a good balance of nutrients is really the only way as far as I can see it.

 

[ally5555]

The 130g of carbs has come from research that shows this is the minimum to prevent ketosis. We do not have RDAs in the Uk but a report published in 1991 sets out Dietary Reference Values for all age groups - I do not have a copy at home but will look at in work as there are some references in it. The DRVs are under review.

Now as far the ketogenic diet for epilepsy is concerned I had my current issue of the journal of Human nutrition yesterday and there is a review paper about it - how strange.

The numbers in the Uk are very small - around 150 in the UK. They take up alot of dietetic hours and that is probably why they are not used widely. They classically consist of 90% fat, with carbs at 10-20g and protein making up the rest. Generally the pts are in hospital when this is started as it is safer and easier to monitor. One study has shown it takes 50 hours of dietetic time to instigate the diet. Many end up being tube fed as well because the diet is so high in fat - my limited experience several years was also that tube feeding was required because of the high volume of fat , particularly MCT oil which is not tolerated very well. A commercial tube feed is used but the diet is very deficient and has to be supplemented . There are also studies that have shown it has adverse effects on blood lipds and bones ! There are references which maybe worth lookig at - will see if i can get hold of them in work as it may have some relevance to low carbing.

So Atkins or low carb diet it is not and has to be monitored very carefully. For some kids it cannot be continued long term - they just cannot keep to it.

allyx

 

[noblehead]

This article is interesting regarding the dangers of ketosis which a Atkins diet promotes:

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-the-dif ... idosis.htm

Nigel

 

[Sid Bonkers]

The original question was "Is a Atkins Diet Dangerous?" well clearly it is or at least it was because the Atkins diet has now been changed due to 'health concerns'. The 'new' Atkins diet includes, shock horror, potatoes, bread, fruit etc, thats right, carbs.


Seems the Atkins diet has gone from low carb to low GI carb at a stroke?


Full story here - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/artic ... -diet.html

 

[noblehead]

The original question was "Is a Atkins Diet Dangerous?" well clearly it is or at least it was because the Atkins diet has now been changed due to 'health concerns'. The 'new' Atkins diet includes, shock horror, potatoes, bread, fruit etc, thats right, carbs.


Seems the Atkins diet has gone from low carb to GI carb at a stroke?


Full story here - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/artic ... -diet.html

Sid, the cynic in me would say that this is because low-carb diets such as Atkins were proven to dangerous to health, so there commercial interests are at risk, as we already know, the diet industry is a big money industry. I don't think the fact that Atkins died nearly 5 stone overweight, had a heart attack and had high bp and cholesterol would have helped either! :lol:

Nigel