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Is a vegan diet effective for a T2D on orals?

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Oldvatr

Oldvatr

Expert
Messages
8,453
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Tablets (oral)
I have had many discussions with vegetarians and vegans where claims are made that this diet is safe and effective for a Type 2 diabetic using orals only, but my experience with following the meal plans has had disastrous consequences for my blood sugars and wellbeing.

I am also told that the vegan diet is totally healthy and totally safe, yet when I ask for evidence to back up these claims, there is very poor response to my question. Yet I am aware that this diet can suffer severe nutrient deficiencies if not supplemented. Some of the data I have been given was actually suggesting I take known poisons or carcinogens and that it is safe to do so, IMHO the advice given to me has been very lacking and incorrect, and has a total disregard for my safety.

I am interested in discussing the science that would better support the claim that i can cure my T2D with this diet. I want to dicuss and highlight if the nutrient deficiencies are real, and what workarounds can be used. I am not interested in discussions on animal welfare or environmentl impact of same since these would be derailments in my view, I have my moral stance, you have yours, lets leave them out of this thread, please.

This could be a very short lived thread.
 
Well I hope it's not short-lived because I had just started writing a thread of my own on the same subject with exactly the same plea as yours to keep it on track. You have saved me the bother. Thanks. Here's hoping we both learn something
 
The day when we stop learning and close our minds is when the arguments begin. I learn new things every day. That is not the same as being taught a lesson eh?
 
I realise there is a thread here but can't read the content. Also, I don't want to appear rude but I have no intention of posting. I hate the continual arguments.

So I'm very sorry and I know this post is off topic but I wanted to explain.
 
WuTwo said:
I realise there is a thread here but can't read the content. Also, I don't want to appear rude but I have no intention of posting. I hate the continual arguments.

So I'm very sorry and I know this post is off topic but I wanted to explain.
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You are also T1D on insulin.

Edit to add: you also have me on ignore, so what I say here will not enter your intray.
 
In terms of the glucose footprint, we already know that vegan ketogenic eating is possible, so in theory yes. That’s if one’s only concern is the actual diabetes, which of course it shouldn’t be.
 
Jim Lahey said:
In terms of the glucose footprint, we already know that vegan ketogenic eating is possible, so in theory yes. That’s if one’s only concern is the actual diabetes, which of course it shouldn’t be.
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Precisely my point.
 
Here is a treatise written by a journalist on a vegan keto diet experiment they did. It only lasted 3 weeks and then they pulled the plug on it (apparently) I am not sure if the author is an omnivore normally but their idea of keto includes meat, which is a major booboo in the article, However it was a light read and was downloaded from a vegan blogsite,
http://www.elsaswholesomelife.com/home/2018/8/11/vegan-keto-experiment-part-1
 
Oldvatr said:
I have had many discussions with vegetarians and vegans where claims are made that this diet is safe and effective for a Type 2 diabetic using orals only, but my experience with following the meal plans has had disastrous consequences for my blood sugars and wellbeing.

I am also told that the vegan diet is totally healthy and totally safe, yet when I ask for evidence to back up these claims, there is very poor response to my question. Yet I am aware that this diet can suffer severe nutrient deficiencies if not supplemented. Some of the data I have been given was actually suggesting I take known poisons or carcinogens and that it is safe to do so, IMHO the advice given to me has been very lacking and incorrect, and has a total disregard for my safety.

I am interested in discussing the science that would better support the claim that i can cure my T2D with this diet. I want to dicuss and highlight if the nutrient deficiencies are real, and what workarounds can be used. I am not interested in discussions on animal welfare or environmentl impact of same since these would be derailments in my view, I have my moral stance, you have yours, lets leave them out of this thread, please.

This could be a very short lived thread.
Click to expand...
Why are you so concerned, if you have doubts about the wisdom of a vegan diet just say no.
 
Mr_Pot said:
Why are you so concerned, if you have doubts about the wisdom of a vegan diet just say no.
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I may not have that choice for much longer. My concerns are for others on the forum who may also have their freedom of choice taken away starting next year,
 
Oldvatr said:
I may not have that choice for much longer. My concerns are for others on the forum who may also have their freedom of choice taken away starting next year,
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I think your vegan daughter has affected your judgement. Flying pigs are more likely than a lack of meat.
 
Mr_Pot said:
I think your vegan daughter has affected your judgement. Flying pigs are more likely than a lack of meat.
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No I have tried vegan when I was at Uni long before my daughter was born, and it put me in hospital because I was doing it wrong. I also followed a vegetarian diet while being a hippie, and that too did leave me with some health issues. Recently I have tried vegan meals that have quite clearly had bad effects on my health, so I think I can speak with some prior knowledge, My researches recently also highlight issues with the vegan WOE, and what concerns me is that Newbies are being given the glossy video and social media hype without the proper dietary support network to give proper guidance. There is evidence growing in the social media that newcomer vegans are finding it to be not as simple as slam dunk ditch the meat, but comes with a host of associated health issues if not followed properly. We see these videos being offered in this forum, and flowing testamonials that turn out to be made up fiction. I have no problem with someone who uses vegetarian lifestyle out of choice, but I strongly refute those just offering the propaganda or the dogma. Evangelism is a dangerous tool in the wrong hands.
 
Mr_Pot said:
I'll make a note in my calendar for this time next year to see how this alleged vegan takeover has progressed.
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I am afraid you are derailing the thread which is asking for scientific evidence to ensure that a vegan lifestyle is suitable for a T2D on oral meds. Please keep to the topic.
 
Hi guys, remember where Oldvatr specifically asked for this thread to not be derailed from the scientific discussion of whether veganism is safe and beneficial for T2s on oral medication? Well discussions about meat availability are off topic likely to derail into the usual bickering on that subject. Please desist.

On topic:

Veganism is often criticised for being B12 deficient.
However, taking Metformin for sustained periods has also been shown to make people B12 deficient.
Also malabsorption affects many of us for reasons not connected to veganism or Metformin (e.g. coeliac, Crohns, and other conditions). I fall into this third malabsorption group. My diet is actually very high in B12, yet if I omit the supplements, I test (very) low for B12.
I am sure there are other reasons why ppl need to supplement B12

So I reject the argument that 'Vegans need to supplement, therefore it isn't a healthy diet'.

If many of us on many diets also need to supplement. We just build those supplements in, to make an overall healthy outcome.
Soil depeletion, food processing and modern farming techniques are making many foods less nutrient dense than they used to be, so I suspect that supplementation may well become more necessary and more widespread in future, even for those with the capacity to wring every nutrient from their food.

B12 supplementation is perfectly possible
- by the large doses of sublingual drops that I use in order to absorb enough to stay out of deficiency
- by use of foods like marmite and yeast flakes

Edit:
@Oldvatr - I see we posted simulaneously :)

Further Edit:
If anyone wants references for Metformin/B12 malabsorption, or the soil depletion, then I can supply them, but I have no wish to derail this thread into agriculture, farming and that old chestnut.
 
Brunneria said:
Hi guys, remember where Oldvatr specifically asked for this thread to not be derailed from the scientific discussion of whether veganism is safe and beneficial for T2s on oral medication? Well discussions about meat availability are off topic likely to derail into the usual bickering on that subject. Please desist.

On topic:

Veganism is often criticised for being B12 deficient.
However, taking Metformin for sustained periods has also been shown to make people B12 deficient.
Also malabsorption affects many of us for reasons not connected to veganism or Metformin (e.g. coeliac, Crohns, and other conditions). I fall into this third malabsorption group. My diet is actually very high in B12, yet if I omit the supplements, I test (very) low for B12.
I am sure there are other reasons why ppl need to supplement B12

So I reject the argument that 'Vegans need to supplement, therefore it isn't a healthy diet'.

If many of us on many diets also need to supplement. We just build those supplements in, to make an overall healthy outcome.
Soil depeletion, food processing and modern farming techniques are making many foods less nutrient dense than they used to be, so I suspect that supplementation may well become more necessary and more widespread in future, even for those with the capacity to wring every nutrient from their food.

B12 supplementation is perfectly possible
- by the large doses of sublingual drops that I use in order to absorb enough to stay out of deficiency
- by use of foods like marmite and yeast flakes

@Oldvatr - I see we posted simulaneously :)
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Is the B12 supplement made from animal sources. There are moves to make it from algal sources, but it is not very efficient and is expensive. It requires a lot of energy and water to produce a few capsules that are vegan cmpatible so is not actually viable for feeding a large population yet.
 
Not all people with type 2 diabetes are the same so their response to a vegan diet is likely to differ. For some, a vegan diet may indeed allow good diabetic control. For others, it won't. If you have tried a variety of vegan meals and your blood glucose has responded unfavourably then it would probably not be wise to pursue veganism if you want good diabetic control on your current medication.

This paper discusses the pluses and minuses of vegan eating with regard to health:- https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/89/5/1627S/4596952
 
Oldvatr said:
Is the B12 supplement made from animal sources. There are moves to make it from algal sources, but it is not very efficient and is expensive. It requires a lot of energy and water to produce a few capsules that are vegan cmpatible so is not actually viable for feeding a large population yet.
Click to expand...

That is interesting.
I haven't thought to check. will do so now and report back.
 
Oldvatr said:
Is the B12 supplement made from animal sources.
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Wikipedia says this:-
Industrial production of B12 is achieved through fermentation of selected microorganisms.[78]Streptomyces griseus, a bacterium once thought to be a fungus, was the commercial source of vitamin B12 for many years.[79][80] The species Pseudomonas denitrificans and Propionibacterium freudenreichii subsp. shermanii are more commonly used today https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_B12#Industrial_production​
 
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