Is It High Carb or High Fat?

[paultrust]

I have been following the recent news along with some of my own research. The first thing that struck me was an interview on BBC Radio 4 several days ago in which one expert interviewed made a very important historical statement about Type 2 Diabetes which in earlier times had been recognised as Carbohydrate Intolerant. Which is interesting as the thinking of some dieticians is that the usual High Carb Low Fat Diet may actually doing more harm than good. I then looked at the historical Diet which was very much a standard diet of the era with less sugars but otherwise the same as most other people were eating at that time.
The proposal made is that we should be returning to a full fat high protein diet and cutting out the Carbs completely or as near as possible. So Full Fat Milk is in and Butter Eggs etc breakfast would be a full Breakfast Bacon Eggs etc with meals based on Protien through the day.
What goes out are vegetable oils, any spreads based on Oils, Any processed foods breakfast ceriels the list goes on but basically natural foods are what they propose. It makes a lot of sense to me. Does anyone wish to comment on this?

 

[LittleGreyCat]

One thing I think may be confusing is that some oils are supposed to be good and others bad.

I would class Olive Oil as a vegetable oil (as in, not animal or mineral) and that is supposed to be a good one.

 

[Brunneria]

We have been commenting on it for years.

Have a trundle through the forum. There are hundreds, literally hundreds of success stories from people who have been eating like that (well, maybe not the high protein part, because that is unnecessary) and lowering their HbA1cs, losing weight, reducing meds...

You may also be interested in the www.dietdoctor.com website. Lots of sensible diet advice there too.

 

[paultrust]

One thing I think may be confusing is that some oils are supposed to be good and others bad.

I would class Olive Oil as a vegetable oil (as in, not animal or mineral) and that is supposed to be a good one.

according to the reasearch it seems to suggest all oils are

We have been commenting on it for years.

Have a trundle through the forum. There are hundreds, literally hundreds of success stories from people who have been eating like that (well, maybe not the high protein part, because that is unnecessary) and lowering their HbA1cs, losing weight, reducing meds...

You may also be interested in the www.dietdoctor.com website. Lots of sensible diet advice there too.

I would agree with what you say and It is about time some of the diabetic nurses etc who preach from the usual script woke up I have struggled for years with the low fat high carb way, I am now taking my own way and feel better for it and that is only a few days into it

 

[6cats]

I am a newbie to this, just 10 weeks. I have followed the LCHF diet with some success. I had lost weight anyway before diagnosis but I am maintaining and losing a few more pounds. My HbAc1 level was down from 135 to 72 in just 8 weeks and I think that was largely due to the LCHF diet that I followed, not religiously just sensibly. It makes a lot of sense to me, the 'Diet Dr' site is very good at explaining it all and has many practical good suggestions. I think that by and large we are on our own with this so others experiences are crucial to help work it out. I am T2 on Metformin and Gliclazide and I do test before and after most meals or, if I introduce something new. Despite the controversy testing is essential if you are going to make any sense of it all.

 

[paultrust]

I am a newbie to this, just 10 weeks. I have followed the LCHF diet with some success. I had lost weight anyway before diagnosis but I am maintaining and losing a few more pounds. My HbAc1 level was down from 135 to 72 in just 8 weeks and I think that was largely due to the LCHF diet that I followed, not religiously just sensibly. It makes a lot of sense to me, the 'Diet Dr' site is very good at explaining it all and has many practical good suggestions. I think that by and large we are on our own with this so others experiences are crucial to help work it out. I am T2 on Metformin and Gliclazide and I do test before and after most meals or, if I introduce something new. Despite the controversy testing is essential if you are going to make any sense of it all.

It is over 20 years here and On Metformin Gliclazide and Linagliptin LCHF for me was never an option due to what advice I was given all them years ago and the same advice has stuck since however it has not really helped I decided to give the LCHF option a go only a few days ago and already after years of feeling unwell at best and downright ill at times,
I definitely feel better having made the decision to do this I am not able to make any measurements to back this as I do not self test but if my body reactions are anything to go by all is going well

 

[Brunneria]

It is over 20 years here and On Metformin Gliclazide and Linagliptin LCHF for me was never an option due to what advice I was given all them years ago and the same advice has stuck since however it has not really helped I decided to give the LCHF option a go only a few days ago and already after years of feeling unwell at best and downright ill at times,
I definitely feel better having made the decision to do this I am not able to make any measurements to back this as I do not slf test but if my body reactions are anything to go by all is going well

Watch the blood glucose if you are on gliclazide and low carbing - you may need to reduce your dose or risk hypos... I thought they HAD to prescribe strips when on it, because of the risk of hypos!

Can i strongly urge you to get yourself a meter and test, if only to know what is going on? Many of us T2s on here fund our own testing because the NHS doesnt give us meters and strips on prescription.

Check out the prices. The cheapest i know of is the SD Codefree, available on Amazon, ebay and the Homehealth website. About £14 for the meter and £7 for 50 test strips. Worth its weight in gold, in my opinion.

You will also have the deep satisfaction of knowing that your readings are dropping over time, due to low carbing. it is very motivating!

 

[paultrust]

Watch the blood glucose if you are on gliclazide and low carbing - you may need to reduce your dose or risk hypos... I thought they HAD to prescribe strips when on it, because of the risk of hypos!

Can i strongly urge you to get yourself a meter and test, if only to know what is going on? Many of us T2s on here fund our own testing because the NHS doesnt give us meters and strips on prescription.

Check out the prices. The cheapest i know of is the SD Codefree, available on Amazon, ebay and the Homehealth website. About £14 for the meter and £7 for 50 test strips. Worth its weight in gold, in my opinion.

You will also have the deep satisfaction of knowing that your readings are dropping over time, due to low carbing. it is very motivating!

Hi Thank You for your advice on testing it did not work for me I used to do it but each time I did it I got so stressed that I got bogus readings the only option would be the very expensive new meter that does not rely on finger pricking. It was my Diabetic Nurse who told me not to self test

 

[Bluetit1802]

Hi Thank You for your advice on testing it did not work for me I used to do it but each time I did it I got so stressed that I got bogus readings the only option would be the very expensive new meter that does not rely on finger pricking. It was my Diabetic Nurse who told me not to self test

I'm afraid most diabetes nurses and doctors tell us not to test, mainly to save the NHS money. The wisest thing is to ignore them. It is poor advice.

As @Brunneria says, if you are on Gliclazide or similar medication (not Metformin as that is different) you are at risk of hypos and are obliged by law to test before you drive and at intervals during driving. The NHS is obliged to give you a meter and strips because of this.

 

[himtoo]

agree with the testing -- your meter will not tell you any lies
use it to test reaction to foods and help determine the best diet for you !!!!!

 

[Robbity]

The

The proposal made is that we should be returning to a full fat high protein diet and cutting out the Carbs completely or as near as possible.

I have a slight issue over this, in that for diabetics we should be eating high(er) fat but moderate protein, as protein under certain circumstances can also be converted into glucose. So we need to be aware and watch for this. And the carbs that need to be cut are really just those that are very high in starch and sugar, but not necessarily all carbs, as this could also mean that we could end up eating very little in the way of, or even no, vegetables, salads, herbs, fruits, nuts, seeds... We may not need carbs as such, but we do generally need the vitamins and minerals found in many of these types of food. So the five a day side of the currently recommended diet does actually have some merit.

A meter is a powerful tool not only for helping to control our glucose levels via our diet, but learning too what other conditions can affect us. Most readings will never be bogus, so if you get stressed you glucose levels will go up, and will do so too if you're ill or have an infection, take certain medications, and so on: and they'll still affect our glucose levels whether or not we choose to test. If people are on medication that can possibly cause hypos then it's important for their safety and that of others that they do test, and as @Brunneria and @Bluetit1802 have said they may also need to adjust their medication on a low carb diet.

Robbity

 

[Kristin251]

Yup. What Robbity said. Exactly.

 

[Pinkorchid]

Hi Thank You for your advice on testing it did not work for me I used to do it but each time I did it I got so stressed that I got bogus readings the only option would be the very expensive new meter that does not rely on finger pricking. It was my Diabetic Nurse who told me not to self test

Yes most are told T2's do not need to test although a lot of us do it but if you have done that but got really stressed about it then perhaps it is not for you stressing is not good for glucose levels

 

[JohnEGreen]

I'm just guessing here but maybe the stress you felt was due to high readings while following the orthodox dietary advice if you follow a low carb diet then the chances are that over time you will see reducing BG readings and will feel encouraged rather than stressed of course there are no guarantees of this but it would be I think the likely outcome.

Of course if you do not test then you will not know if what you are doing is having the desired effect the choice is yours not your doctor's not your DN's and of course not our's.

 

[paultrust]

I'm just guessing here but maybe the stress you felt was due to high readings while following the orthodox dietary advice if you follow a low carb diet then the chances are that over time you will see reducing BG readings and will feel encouraged rather than stressed of course there are no guarantees of this but it would be I think the likely outcome.

Of course if you do not test then you will not know if what you are doing is having the desired effect the choice is yours not your doctor's not your DN's and of course not our's.

ThankYou for the advice I perhaps need to clarify the bogus readings I kept regular diaries of readings for several years which were greatly at odds with the standard 3 monthly testing which I followed due to the reading issues. every time the 3 monthly readings were significantly lower than the readings I obtained using the self test meter Of which I tried several in case one was faulty. I spoke with my pharmacist about the new generation the price is the big issue there at about £150-00 initially and the monthly sundries at a considerable price too.

 

[Brunneria]

ThankYou for the advice I perhaps need to clarify the bogus readings I kept regular diaries of readings for several years which were greatly at odds with the standard 3 monthly testing which I followed due to the reading issues. every time the 3 monthly readings were significantly lower than the readings I obtained using the self test meter Of which I tried several in case one was faulty. I spoke with my pharmacist about the new generation the price is the big issue there at about £150-00 initially and the monthly sundries at a considerable price too.

Oh dear. I really don't think you are getting the help and support that you need from your surgery.

Prick tests using home meters will ALWAYS vary from our 3 monthly HbA1c score to some extent.

How often and when were you testing? Even people who test before and after every meal will have a HbA1c that varies from their home meter, because the HbA1c takes into account your sleeping blood glucose levels and the gaps between meals, and so on.

Unless you were testing 10-15 times a day, then your prick testing average was never going to have a chance of reflecting your HbA1c.

Plus, any HbA1c that is significantly lower than expected should be investigated, since some medical conditions (such as anaemia) can affect the HbA1c and effectively give a false reading. No idea if that rings any bells for you, but I would hope your nurse would have at least investigated? There is another test that can be used, if anaemia is suspected.

Sorry if I seem critical. I am not critical of you. But I am concerned that you may be driving when on Gliclazide, while not testing your blood glucose. If this is case, and the DVLA find out, your licence will be revoked, and your insurance invalidated. Your nurse should know this. Did she ensure that you do not drive before telling you not to test?

Edit:
Apologies - have just checked the DVLA website, and they say you only have to tell them if you are on insulin, AND/OR you have had 2 episodes of hypos that needed assistance, AND/OR your doc tells you that you need to tell the DVLA about your medication - so I apologise for my last paragraph, which probably scared the living daylights out of you. I stand corrected. Sorry about that.

 

[bulkbiker]

ThankYou for the advice I perhaps need to clarify the bogus readings I kept regular diaries of readings for several years which were greatly at odds with the standard 3 monthly testing which I followed due to the reading issues. every time the 3 monthly readings were significantly lower than the readings I obtained using the self test meter Of which I tried several in case one was faulty. I spoke with my pharmacist about the new generation the price is the big issue there at about £150-00 initially and the monthly sundries at a considerable price too.

Hi paultrust
I'm not sure what your level of expertise is re HbA1c (3 monthly) levels and the reading you take from your meter?
Most of us use the meter to determine which foods cause our blood sugars to spike by measuring before and two hours after eating. There are a few people who use this data to predict their HbA1c levels but unless you have little fluctuation in your blood sugars then this isn't what we use the readings for. Once we know which foods cause our sugars to spike we avoid them and thus gain better control of our Type 2. If that is what you were doing then apologies but it sounds as if you were trying to
predict your HbA1c rather than use the data to avoid certain foods.
Personally I, and a lot of other people here, find that by following the LCHF diet we can bring our numbers down to a level where our HbA1c is considered to be non-diabetic (often much to our HCP's delight and consternation).
In terms of cost we use the SD Codefree meter to give the multiple daily reading we use to monitor our food intake due to the relative "cheapness" of the consumables (i.e. test strips) which can work out at just over £5 for a pot of 50, meaning about a £15 per month ongoing cost assuming 5 times testing per day.
I hope that helps.
Regards
Mark

 

[paultrust]

Hi paultrust
I'm not sure what your level of expertise is re HbA1c (3 monthly) levels and the reading you take from your meter?
Most of us use the meter to determine which foods cause our blood sugars to spike by measuring before and two hours after eating. There are a few people who use this data to predict their HbA1c levels but unless you have little fluctuation in your blood sugars then this isn't what we use the readings for. Once we know which foods cause our sugars to spike we avoid them and thus gain better control of our Type 2. If that is what you were doing then apologies but it sounds as if you were trying to
predict your HbA1c rather than use the data to avoid certain foods.
Personally I, and a lot of other people here, find that by following the LCHF diet we can bring our numbers down to a level where our HbA1c is considered to be non-diabetic (often much to our HCP's delight and consternation).
In terms of cost we use the SD Codefree meter to give the multiple daily reading we use to monitor our food intake due to the relative "cheapness" of the consumables (i.e. test strips) which can work out at just over £5 for a pot of 50, meaning about a £15 per month ongoing cost assuming 5 times testing per day.
I hope that helps.
Regards
Mark

Hi paultrust
I'm not sure what your level of expertise is re HbA1c (3 monthly) levels and the reading you take from your meter?
Most of us use the meter to determine which foods cause our blood sugars to spike by measuring before and two hours after eating. There are a few people who use this data to predict their HbA1c levels but unless you have little fluctuation in your blood sugars then this isn't what we use the readings for. Once we know which foods cause our sugars to spike we avoid them and thus gain better control of our Type 2. If that is what you were doing then apologies but it sounds as if you were trying to


predict your HbA1c rather than use the data to avoid certain foods.
Personally I, and a lot of other people here, find that by following the LCHF diet we can bring our numbers down to a level where our HbA1c is considered to be non-diabetic (often much to our HCP's delight and consternation).
In terms of cost we use the SD Codefree meter to give the multiple daily reading we use to monitor our food intake due to the relative "cheapness" of the consumables (i.e. test strips) which can work out at just over £5 for a pot of 50, meaning about a £15 per month ongoing cost assuming 5 times testing per day.
I hope that helps.
Regards
Mark

Hi Mark I have been diagnosed for 25 years so I understand HbA1c pretty well however I sadly have had quite a few changes in my health support eg long established GPs who left/retired and an excelent Practicew Nurse who due to these changes also left the practice now I am left with the situation where even my Hba1c readings are not being offered to me and the only thing the new GP seems to want to do is throw more meds at me. When I challenged him about the fact that in the 25 years I have had the diagnosis I have never had a referal to a dietician or even been offered a diet guide so left alone to work it out is definitely the part of the issue. years of feeling unwell due to the hi carb low fat diet. Of which I have mentioned for years at each HbA1C and annual check ups.
I have now taken the bull by the horns and decided to look at the LCHF diet and its only been a few days and I feel so much better as to using a meter I lost faith in them and until I can afford one that does not rely on finger prick testing then that would not change part of the truth of this is I am very needle phobic hope this helps to clarify that one

 

[bulkbiker]

Hi Mark I have been diagnosed for 25 years so I understand HbA1c pretty well however I sadly have had quite a few changes in my health support eg long established GPs who left/retired and an excelent Practicew Nurse who due to these changes also left the practice now I am left with the situation where even my Hba1c readings are not being offered to me and the only thing the new GP seems to want to do is throw more meds at me. When I challenged him about the fact that in the 25 years I have had the diagnosis I have never had a referal to a dietician or even been offered a diet guide so left alone to work it out is definitely the part of the issue. years of feeling unwell due to the hi carb low fat diet. Of which I have mentioned for years at each HbA1C and annual check ups.
I have now taken the bull by the horns and decided to look at the LCHF diet and its only been a few days and I feel so much better as to using a meter I lost faith in them and until I can afford one that does not rely on finger prick testing then that would not change part of the truth of this is I am very needle phobic hope this helps to clarify that one

Well you've hopefully made a good start.. LCHF has helped lots of us and sounds like its working for you too.. it has certainly changed my life and made me much healthier (and 5 stone lighter so far) .. I hope you continue to feel better.
Regards
Mark