Type 2 Is it only the carbs that count in LCHF?

[Canadian_cousin]

Hypothetical Question:
There are two dieting diabetics very similar in health history, each eating only 20 carbs a day, without cheating. Subject A controls portions, eats moderate amounts of healthy fats. Subject B eats larger portions, and a much greater amount of healthy fats. But they both only eat 20 carbs a day. Will these two people be in a similar state of ketosis? Will the larger amount of food, and especially fats have an effect on the rate that Subject B loses weight? Does the difference in the amount of calories they have eaten figure into this equation at all? I haven't seen anything in the readings about this issue, and my friend and I would like to know! If you control your carbs carefully, can you overeat with impunity?

 

[Indy51]

As far as I know the only person who has ever done a self-experimentation like this is Sam Feltham. As a female of a certain age, I still believe that excess calories count. Might be completely different for a young athletic person (non-diabetic in Sam's case) who is not genetically prone to weight gain. May be something else entirely for a middle aged diabetic who gains weight easily. As with all things, context (especially personal hormonal milieu) matters

http://live.smashthefat.com/why-i-didnt-get-fat/

 

[Mrs Vimes]

The high fat is not a challenge to eat as much as you want but until you are full. I love my sugar free jelly and cream but too much and I'll start putting on weight. I cook with fats, I eat meat that is considered fatty. Love pork belly. I eat oily fish. I have an avocado most days, butter on veg. But I try not to snack on fat. If I eat nuts I don't just eat a hand full. I am a cream monster.
This is why you can use this diet to lose weight but also maintain.
Staying in ketosis - if I eat too much protein I knock myself out of it or at least lower ketones because my insulin goes up because of the spikes from protein.

 

[KevinPotts]

Pretty sure it's not a prescription for gluttony. The fat gets burned and as importantly satiates and helps you feel full, so you are likely to eat less overall


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[Canadian_cousin]

As far as I know the only person who has ever done a self-experimentation like this is Sam Feltham. As a female of a certain age, I still believe that excess calories count. Might be completely different for a young athletic person (non-diabetic in Sam's case) who is not genetically prone to weight gain. May be something else entirely for a middle aged diabetic who gains weight easily. As with all things, context (especially personal hormonal milieu) matters

http://live.smashthefat.com/why-i-didnt-get-fat/

I just read the smash the fat article that Sam wrote about his 21-day high-fat diet. Fascinating stuff! The question remains though, would someone who is insulin resistant, diabetic, only moderately athletic and middle aged respond the same? Context as you put it! You are dead on!
I also read about his high carb experiment, where he gained 16 pounds in 21 days. He provides his food logs unlike the guy that did Supersize Me. There, calories from carbs did add up.A lot to think about!
I really appreciated the link you provided. I had never heard of any of this before. Thanks

 

[Canadian_cousin]

The high fat is not a challenge to eat as much as you want but until you are full. I love my sugar free jelly and cream but too much and I'll start putting on weight. I cook with fats, I eat meat that is considered fatty. Love pork belly. I eat oily fish. I have an avocado most days, butter on veg. But I try not to snack on fat. If I eat nuts I don't just eat a hand full. I am a cream monster.
This is why you can use this diet to lose weight but also maintain.
Staying in ketosis - if I eat too much protein I knock myself out of it or at least lower ketones because my insulin goes up because of the spikes from protein.

I didn't know that you could get spikes from protein! I know it's not good to eat too much protein because it's hard on your kidneys, but never knew that it could knock you out of ketosis. Thank you for sharing… I'm getting so much to think about!

 

[Canadian_cousin]

Pretty sure it's not a prescription for gluttony. The fat gets burned and as importantly satiates and helps you feel full, so you are likely to eat less overall


Sent from my iPhone using DCUK Forum mobile app

I totally agree with you about low-carb not being a license to gluttony! And I really do notice that my appetite is really lessened in this eating style. My question was hypothetical, as it seems with a low carb diet, the old calories in equals calories absorbed equation does not hold true. I have a friend who is also low carbing at this time, and her husband is greatly alarmed because of her increased dietary fat. We couldn't find any hard science on this issue. My cardiologist told me that I was playing Russian roulette by going off statins, especially as I had increased my fat intake. He adamantly sticks to the American Heart Association beliefs on Chloresterol, and denies that there's any new real scientific research on the issue. It's very difficult to negotiate your way through so many differing opinions and interpretations.

 

[Mrs Vimes]

@Canadian_cousin the protein spikes are very much lower than a carb. I'm a type 1 so you may find as you are type 2 you may be producing enough insulin still to cover it. I think too much protein is only hard on your kidneys if you already have problems with them.
There is a type 2 on here who only eats meat and nothing else. @NoCrbs4Me might be able to say if he gets protein spikes or not.

 

[Canadian_cousin]

@Canadian_cousin the protein spikes are very much lower than a carb. I'm a type 1 so you may find as you are type 2 you may be producing enough insulin still to cover it. I think too much protein is only hard on your kidneys if you already have problems with them.
There is a type 2 on here who only eats meat and nothing else. @NoCrbs4Me might be able to say if he gets protein spikes or not.

No veg at all?!!

 

[Kristin251]

Nope, he eats no plants at all.

Protein does spike insulin and excess will turn to glucose. I noticed this as I was progressing to type 1. I had to cut way back in protein to get good numbers.
My formula is VLC, MODERATE protein and I enough fat to satisfy. This keeps my bs and my weight happy. As stated the idea isn't to cram fat in but to use it for fuel. If you have body fat you wish to get rid of it will use that as well but of course not if you're eating tons of fat. I don't believe in the calorie in/ calorie out theory. I believe it is the type of calories that matter. Some fats are harder to burn than others as well.

 

[Robbity]

No veg at all?!!

Absolutely NO veg! As far as I recall meat and eggs only.

And re your hypothetical question:
LCHF isn't a magic miracle weight loss program it's essentially a glucose control diet - though you can lose weight on it, but you can also maintain or gain weight. You still need to consider how much fuel you're eating against how much energy your body needs and uses. Eat enough and you do a balancing act, eat too much and the surplus has to go somewhere and will get stored, eat less and you'll start using your body's fuel reserves.

Carbs are just part of the equation, and it's more the type of calories you eat that matters most. As a starting point, when you choose the number of carbs you want to eat, your protein intake should be enough to cover your body's needs for maintenance and repair, and then you can adjust the amount of fat you eat according to your size, weight, age, activity levels, whether or not you need to lose, gain, or maintain weight, etc. So what happens to your Subject B weight wise would depend on all these factors.

Robbity

 

[Squire Fulwood]

I might as well chip in with my limited understanding. Carbs are easily converted to glucose and lots of carbs can be converted to lots of glucose quite quickly. Your body may not need lots of glucose right now since you have been sitting on the settee watching football and wearing your trainers. Lots of spare glucose means lots of insulin and a lot of fat cells will be filled since no other place is available. Insulin does not have the ability to take anything out of the fat cells so it stays there. (Briffa/Kendrick).

Protein can eventually be converted to glucose in the blood but at a slower rate and all of the above can happen but not so quickly or dramatically. Again if you eat too much of it then you can store the glucose in the fat stores and get fatter.

To get the triglycerides out of the fat cells you need leptin and the body produces this when you eat fat. Once you produce leptin the triglycerides can get out of the fat cells and the insulin put them back in so you get a sort of churn. At the end of the day, if you have eaten too much then you stay fat but if there is a net deficiency you get slimmer. Calories can be helpful in making this call.

Sadly if you binge on carbs then you are most likely to get fatter.

 

[Kristin251]

Also to add, protein in the absence of carbs causes gluconeogenisis to happen quite rapidly. Just a protein meal will cause my numbers to go up almost as fast as carbs. Maybe not quite as high but fast. I need fat to slow it all down

 

[Canadian_cousin]

I might as well chip in with my limited understanding. Carbs are easily converted to glucose and lots of carbs can be converted to lots of glucose quite quickly. Your body may not need lots of glucose right now since you have been sitting on the settee watching football and wearing your trainers. Lots of spare glucose means lots of insulin and a lot of fat cells will be filled since no other place is available. Insulin does not have the ability to take anything out of the fat cells so it stays there. (Briffa/Kendrick).

Protein can eventually be converted to glucose in the blood but at a slower rate and all of the above can happen but not so quickly or dramatically. Again if you eat too much of it then you can store the glucose in the fat stores and get fatter.

To get the triglycerides out of the fat cells you need leptin and the body produces this when you eat fat. Once you produce leptin the triglycerides can get out of the fat cells and the insulin put them back in so you get a sort of churn. At the end of the day, if you have eaten too much then you stay fat but if there is a net deficiency you get slimmer. Calories can be helpful in making this call.

Sadly if you binge on carbs then you are most likely to get fatter.

Great stuff, thank you! I will pass all this onto my friend!

 

[SunnyExpat]

Hypothetical Question:
There are two dieting diabetics very similar in health history, each eating only 20 carbs a day, without cheating. Subject A controls portions, eats moderate amounts of healthy fats. Subject B eats larger portions, and a much greater amount of healthy fats. But they both only eat 20 carbs a day. Will these two people be in a similar state of ketosis? Will the larger amount of food, and especially fats have an effect on the rate that Subject B loses weight? Does the difference in the amount of calories they have eaten figure into this equation at all? I haven't seen anything in the readings about this issue, and my friend and I would like to know! If you control your carbs carefully, can you overeat with impunity?

He only ate this way for 21 days if I remember?
It's very common to lose weight initially, as the body needs time to adjust, and gut flora convert.
It would be very interesting to see the results over a year, as most diets balance out after this time.

I certainly gain weight on any diet if I overeat any food group, and need to count calories always.

 

[NoCrbs4Me]

@Canadian_cousin the protein spikes are very much lower than a carb. I'm a type 1 so you may find as you are type 2 you may be producing enough insulin still to cover it. I think too much protein is only hard on your kidneys if you already have problems with them.
There is a type 2 on here who only eats meat and nothing else. @NoCrbs4Me might be able to say if he gets protein spikes or not.

I don't get any blood glucose spikes from protein. Your mileage may vary.

 

[SunnyExpat]

Protein turns to glucose, it's just the process is a bit slower in some people.
I think Prof Taylor explained the process in his talk on the Newcastle Diet.

 

[Kristin251]

Protein turns to glucose, it's just the process is a bit slower in some people.
I think Prof Taylor explained the process in his talk on the Newcastle Diet.

Sure does. I bolus for it like Bernstein recommends. Half

 

[Canadian_cousin]

Sure does. I bolus for it like Bernstein recommends. Half

I'm sorry Kristen, I don't understand what bolus means although I am familiar with the Bernstein diet. I thought that the Bernstein diet was low-carb and low-fat. Does it work the same as a high-fat, low-carb diet?

 

[Kristin251]

I'm sorry Kristen, I don't understand what bolus means although I am familiar with the Bernstein diet. I thought that the Bernstein diet was low-carb and low-fat. Does it work the same as a high-fat, low-carb diet?

I take insulin so bolus means the amount of insulin I take. Bernstein is low carb but not low fat. I have to take insulin for protein but this CAN be more for type 1's. Some type 2's notice little spikes for proteins and it can be more apparent in type 1's. Your meter will tell you