Is Ketosis Sustainable?

Robbity · Sep 1, 2015

(Dietary) Ketosis is a ( natural) state where you body has switched form burning carbohydrates for energy to burning fats, when there's insufficient carbs for its energy requirements. It will happen on very low carbohydrate higher fat diets. Atkins, with his diet, recommended eating 20g carbs a day strict diet for 2 weeks to guarantee ketosis, but it can happen at higher carbohydrate levels (e.g. up to 100g carbs a day) if someone is exercising intensively. Athletes often use ketogenic diets for endurance sports, as their bodiess have much greater stores fat to rely on than carbs/glucose.

And it's not to be confused (as often happens!) with ketoacidosis which is a dangerous condition for diabetics taking insulin, when their blood glucose is very high and they are severely lacking in insulin - their bodies start acting like a runaway reactor and produce excessive ketones

Robbity

Spiker · Sep 1, 2015

zand said:
Ketosis is a metabolic process that occurs when the body does not have enough glucose for energy. Stored fats are broken down, resulting in a build-up of acids called ketones within the body.

Except this quote is misleading but unfortunately what a lot of GPs and other HCPs think. It should continue something along the lines of:

These ketone breakdown products are continuously cleared from the bloodstream by the action of insulin (except in certain crisis conditions that can occur in diabetics, when there is inadequate insulin present).

zand · Sep 1, 2015

Spiker said:
Except this quote is misleading but unfortunately what a lot of GPs and other HCPs think. It should continue something along the lines of:

These ketone breakdown products are continuously cleared from the bloodstream by the action of insulin (except in certain crisis conditions that can occur in diabetics, when there is inadequate insulin present).

True sorry, yes I only used ketostix, so not that accurate, but every time I tested after day 1 the reading was around 4 which I was happy with. As far as I was concerned I am still very obese which is down to insulin resistance so I was pretty confident I would have enough. I just checked for reassurance.

Forgive me Spiker I am poorly with high temperature today

Spiker · Sep 1, 2015

zand said:
Forgive me Spiker I am poorly with high temperature today

No worries zand, it's not your quote it's the "official definition" right?
Good luck with the fever, hope it comes down soon. You will soon be cured but I will still be just as crazy.

Pinkorchid · Sep 1, 2015

zand said:
This is the start of the first article I googled.....

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/180858.php

Ketosis is a metabolic process that occurs when the body does not have enough glucose for energy. Stored fats are broken down, resulting in a build-up of acids called ketones within the body.

Some people encourage ketosis by following a diet called the ketogenic or low-carb diet. The aim of the diet is to try and burn off unwanted fat by forcing the body to rely on burning fat for energy, rather than carbohydrates.

In fact it's the only thing I can do to lose weight. Have a look at this:-

http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/my-5-day-dairy-fat-fast.81433/

It's truly amazing and proves that for me and T2's like me who struggle to lose weight that counting calories is not everything. It's the carbs that make us fat. Of course you won't need to do this yourself as you are so slim, but it's a real help to me.

Thanks for the link I read it and it sounds quite scary as there seems to be a very thin line between good ketosis and ketoacidosis which is not good It says ketosis occurs when the body does not have enough glucose so it burns the fat instead I can see how that would be good for weight loss. It does say though there is no benefit in doing it long term so sounds like it is a way to loose weight quickly then it should be stopped. It does say diabetics doing the ketosis diet should be careful as it could quickly turn to ketoacidosis this is more likely inT1's but can happen with T2's

zand · Sep 1, 2015

What is scary is being very obese and not being able to lose the weight. None of the other 'methods' worked for me. My GP is delighted that at last I have found something that works. Eating too many carbs can cause ketoacidosis too if you don't check your BG's. Thankfully by eating very low carb I have dodged the need to go back onto blood pressure tablets and to take statins at all. That's all good news to me. .

Spiker · Sep 1, 2015

I would not say it's a thin line. Just be sure to check for ketones whenever your blood glucose is high. Which should happen much less often on LCHF. It's useful to check ketones anyway to see if you are in nutritional ketosis.

LucySW · Sep 1, 2015

Honestly, Pinkorchid, they're quite different and unrelated. You can get into acidosis (that which will kill you) if you're a Type 1 with astronomical (almost) blood sugars and no insulin to deal with it. Otherwise, you can't. Can't be done.

Up to 5 mmol ketones (tho more usually 1 to 2) is nutritional ketosis; ketoACIDosis can start at 10/12 plus. Correct, Spikeroo?

Totto · Sep 1, 2015

Pinkorchid said:
Thanks for the link I read it and it sounds quite scary as there seems to be a very thin line between good ketosis and ketoacidosis which is not good It says ketosis occurs when the body does not have enough glucose so it burns the fat instead I can see how that would be good for weight loss. It does say though there is no benefit in doing it long term so sounds like it is a way to loose weight quickly then it should be stopped. It does say diabetics doing the ketosis diet should be careful as it could quickly turn to ketoacidosis this is more likely inT1's but can happen with T2's

What I find scary in diabetes are the complications. My dad was a pain to live with as he was in so much pain, he then passed away at the age of 72, twenty two years after diagnosis, I was 22 at that time and knew I had inherited the diabetes genes and lo and behold, at the age of 50, same as dad, there came the diabetes diagnosis, I will do what I can to live a healthier life than he did and my chosen path is ketosis and normal BG at all times, they come together you see. With lots of fats in the diet thrown in, obviously.

Baruney · Sep 1, 2015

Spiker said:
The best evidence is a blood ketone test. You can get home meters for free (usually) and test strips cost about £1 for each test. There are also urine strips which are hugely cheaper but less reliable (due to the way the type of ketones excreted in urine adapts during ketosis). Low BG is not a good indicator that you are in ketosis though high BG pretty much proves that you are not, unless you are just skipping insulin. Either way not healthy.

Ketosis is directly determined by blood insulin level but we rarely get tested for that, maybe once a year in lab tests. Low insulin produces ketosis. That's why you need to low carb to get healthy ketosis.

AS technology improves there is a 3rd way and that's the Ketonix - which measures via breath and is a one time cost but again do read up about the different measurements. Bloods are really the only true confirmation but again some, quite rightly, balk at the price of strips (are under half the cost fro Oz including postage).

By fat the cheapest way of testing is to ask a (very) dear friend if you can breath on them. After they wake up and say...Ah Sven have you been on the old Surstromming again you'll know your in the sweet spot.

Lamont D · Sep 1, 2015

zand said:
True sorry, yes I only used ketostix, so not that accurate, but every time I tested after day 1 the reading was around 4 which I was happy with. As far as I was concerned I am still very obese which is down to insulin resistance so I was pretty confident I would have enough. I just checked for reassurance.

Forgive me Spiker I am poorly with high temperature today

Sorry to here that @zand! Was it your weekend away?

Baruney · Sep 1, 2015

zand said:
True sorry, yes I only used ketostix, so not that accurate, but every time I tested after day 1 the reading was around 4 which I was happy with. As far as I was concerned I am still very obese which is down to insulin resistance so I was pretty confident I would have enough. I just checked for reassurance.

Forgive me Spiker I am poorly with high temperature today

Sounds like your ready for another fat fast when you've recovered @zand ?

Lamont D · Sep 1, 2015

As a permanent ketosis person, I have not in any way shape or form had side effects!
Quite the opposite!
I have never been fitter, healthier, and so full of energy and life. I am so clear headed and can safely say, that if I didn't, my life would be awful.
So I do and I don't or won't regret this!
I have my life back!

Robbity · Sep 1, 2015

Pinkorchid said:
Thanks for the link I read it and it sounds quite scary as there seems to be a very thin line between good ketosis and ketoacidosis which is not good It says ketosis occurs when the body does not have enough glucose so it burns the fat instead I can see how that would be good for weight loss. It does say though there is no benefit in doing it long term so sounds like it is a way to loose weight quickly then it should be stopped. It does say diabetics doing the ketosis diet should be careful as it could quickly turn to ketoacidosis this is more likely inT1's but can happen with T2's

Dietary ketosis is perfectly safe (see below) unless you take insulin and don't have control of your glucose levels and these are well into double figures. Any type 2 diabetics who take other medication in the form of pills or rely on diet alone are NOT at all at risk as their insulin prevents ketoacidosis from occurring.

(@LucySW I've recently found this table
blood concentration of ketones (millimolar)
Condition:
< 0.2 not in ketosis
0.2 - 0.5 slight/mild ketosis
0.5 - 3.0 induced/nutritional ketosis
2.5 - 3.5 post-exercise ketosis
3.0 - 6.0 starvation ketosis
15 - 25 ketoacidosis

The only issue I can see is if someone decides to eat an extremely low carb diet without upping their fat intake and they could end in "starvation ketosis" and doing themselves damage because their body in desperation would start cannibalizing body protein/muscle for its fuel. Which is probably why that combination is not generally recommended.

You don't have to be dieting to stay in ketosis, instead you eat enough fats to prevent your body using any - or too much - of its stored fat. As far as I know it the stuff in your fatty larder requires more effort to process and use, so it's the secondary source of fuel. So to maintain a stable weight you need to either level off or up your fat (and calorie) intake. The various ketogenic and low carb nutritional calculators around (see Google) can help you work this out.

And @Spiker can clobber me if I've got any of this wrong...

Robbity

cz_dave · Sep 1, 2015

paddyzulu said:
Hi, does this mean that you are on a Dr Atkins type diet ?

Yes.

Baruney · Sep 1, 2015

LucySW said:
Honestly, Pinkorchid, they're quite different and unrelated. You can get into acidosis (that which will kill you) if you're a Type 1 with astronomical (almost) blood sugars and no insulin to deal with it. Otherwise, you can't. Can't be done.

Up to 5 mmol ketones (tho more usually 1 to 2) is nutritional ketosis; ketoACIDosis can start at 10/12 plus. Correct, Spikeroo?

Hola @Pinkorchid there is no thin line between the 2. Maybe this link will give you a bit more info.....

http://www.meandmydiabetes.com/2012...amarathon-steve-phinney-and-jeff-volek-study/

cz_dave · Sep 1, 2015

Thanks everyone for all the amazing feedback. It is all very encouraging. I am still starting with LCHF and need to fine tune a few things but it looks promising.

I will see my diabetes consultant in a couple of days, so I am quite curious what he will say about my switching to LCHF from "normal" diet

Baruney · Sep 1, 2015

Robbity said:
Dietary ketosis is perfectly safe (see below) unless you take insulin and don't have control of your glucose levels and these are well into double figures. Any type 2 diabetics who take other medication in the form of pills or rely on diet alone are NOT at all at risk as their insulin prevents ketoacidosis from occurring.

(@LucySW I've recently found this table
blood concentration of ketones (millimolar)
Condition:
< 0.2 not in ketosis
0.2 - 0.5 slight/mild ketosis
0.5 - 3.0 induced/nutritional ketosis
2.5 - 3.5 post-exercise ketosis
3.0 - 6.0 starvation ketosis
15 - 25 ketoacidosis

The only issue I can see is if someone decides to eat an extremely low carb diet without upping their fat intake and they could end in "starvation ketosis" and doing themselves damage because their body in desperation would start cannibalizing body protein/muscle for its fuel. Which is probably why that combination is not generally recommended.

You don't have to be dieting to stay in ketosis, instead you eat enough fats to prevent your body using any - or too much - of its stored fat. As far as I know it the stuff in your fatty larder requires more effort to process and use, so it's the secondary source of fuel. So to maintain a stable weight you need to either level off or up your fat (and calorie) intake. The various ketogenic and low carb nutritional calculators around (see Google) can help you work this out.

And @Spiker can clobber me if I've got any of this wrong...

Robbity

Sounds pretty good to me - perhaps more accuretly you could say to increase the % of fat but a minor point. Depends on 'how deep' you want to go into ketosis and like the 'kicking out of ketosis' depends on your % or cabs and to a lesser extent protein consumed.

Here you go @Robbity - graphic of your table...

.....Yes I am on commission by the authors!

LucySW · Sep 2, 2015

Robbity said:
Dietary ketosis is perfectly safe (see below) unless you take insulin and don't have control of your glucose levels and these are well into double figures. Any type 2 diabetics who take other medication in the form of pills or rely on diet alone are NOT at all at risk as their insulin prevents ketoacidosis from occurring.

(@LucySW I've recently found this table
blood concentration of ketones (millimolar)
Condition:
< 0.2 not in ketosis
0.2 - 0.5 slight/mild ketosis
0.5 - 3.0 induced/nutritional ketosis
2.5 - 3.5 post-exercise ketosis
3.0 - 6.0 starvation ketosis
15 - 25 ketoacidosis

The only issue I can see is if someone decides to eat an extremely low carb diet without upping their fat intake and they could end in "starvation ketosis" and doing themselves damage because their body in desperation would start cannibalizing body protein/muscle for its fuel. Which is probably why that combination is not generally recommended.

You don't have to be dieting to stay in ketosis, instead you eat enough fats to prevent your body using any - or too much - of its stored fat. As far as I know it the stuff in your fatty larder requires more effort to process and use, so it's the secondary source of fuel. So to maintain a stable weight you need to either level off or up your fat (and calorie) intake. The various ketogenic and low carb nutritional calculators around (see Google) can help you work this out.

And @Spiker can clobber me if I've got any of this wrong...

Robbity

Yes, those are the figures I've seen, Phinney & Volek?

Pinkorchid, Yes, the dietary fat becomes the fuel you burn. But you will burn your fat reserves as well. You just have to do it and see, and if you don't want to lose weight you up the protein. Try Jenny Ruhl's calculator, wh I think is brilliant:

http://mobile.dudamobile.com/site/p....phlaunt.com/diabetes/DietMakeupCalc.php#2649

@cz_dave, onward and upward (or downward) !

zand · Sep 2, 2015

nosher8355 said:
Sorry to here that @zand! Was it your weekend away?

Yes I think so! We went to Rome for 3 nights last Tuesday and I think my son and I picked up a bug from the air con in the plane on the way home on Friday. Saturday was exhausting - a long away trip and we both started feeling ill on Monday. Grrrrr.

Baruney said:
Sounds like your ready for another fat fast when you've recovered @zand ?

Yep. I so want to recover quickly this time, but it often takes me ages to get over a bug like this. I'll let you all know

Is Ketosis Sustainable?

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