I've got the D

[torchman2]

You are progressing well...

The morning rise is due to the Dawn Phenomenon, where our insulin resistant liver don't respond to the background insulin to hold back the glucose.

This isn't 100% true, since the liver may be converting lactate into glucose (the Cori cycle) endogenously, due to inefficient anaerobic glycolysis producing too much lactate via pyruvate reduction, instead of oxidative glycolysis to turn pyruvate into CO2 and water.

Also, really it's that the glucose present is not taken up by the cells, so the liver senses this and keeps producing insulin.

 

[torchman2]

Two things you can do to mitigate dawn phenomenon. Firstly do plenty of mild exercise in order to keep glycogen levels low (glycogen is glucose stored in your liver and muscles). Training with weights both depletes glycogen and sucks up lots of glucose.

Why would you want to remove stored glycogen? If there is insufficient glycogen, and no food source of glucose, then muscle tissue and fat will be broken down through catabolic hormones such as cortisol to maintain sufficient glucose supply to the brain. This catabolism is mal-adaptive, ie meant to be a quick fix, not a long term solution, and creates its own problems through long term stress response.

 

[Bluetit1802]

I rather like my liver and want to keep it healthy. I don't like the idea of messing about with it. It keeps me alive in times of fasting and whenever I need a boost of energy.

I was under the impression that depleting glycogen stores only results in them filling up again next time you eat.

 

[torchman2]

I was under the impression that depleting glycogen stores only results in them filling up again next time you eat.

No, if the body senses it has insufficient glucose, then it results in cortisol being released to break down muscle tissue and fat to release glucose (gluconeogenesis). Excess, prolonged high cortisol has impact on brain, heart, skin, sleep, etc. The brain primarily runs on glucose as preferential energy source, so we need it http://neuro.hms.harvard.edu/harvar...n-newsletter/and-brain-series/sugar-and-brain

 

[Member496333]

Why would you want to remove stored glycogen? If there is insufficient glycogen, and no food source of glucose, then muscle tissue and fat will be broken down through catabolic hormones such as cortisol to maintain sufficient glucose supply to the brain. This catabolism is mal-adaptive, ie meant to be a quick fix, not a long term solution, and creates its own problems through long term stress response.

Because it helps lessen dawn phenomenon. In my experience at least. The liver will still manufacture glucose so long as you are consuming enough protein and fat. Works for me anyway. Rock stable glucose 24/7 and no dawn phenomenon. It may not work for everyone of course

 

[Bluetit1802]

No, if the body senses it has insufficient glucose, then it results in cortisol being released to break down muscle tissue and fat to release glucose (gluconeogenesis). Excess, prolonged high cortisol has impact on brain, heart, skin, sleep, etc. The brain primarily runs on glucose as preferential energy source, so we need it http://neuro.hms.harvard.edu/harvar...n-newsletter/and-brain-series/sugar-and-brain

May I ask if you are a diabetic, a scientist, a health care professional? You have no details on your profile page and only joined yesterday. It would be interesting to know where you are coming from with your very scientific posts and what interest you have in this forum. Genuine questions.

 

[torchman2]

May I ask if you are a diabetic, a scientist, a health care professional? You have no details on your profile page and only joined yesterday. It would be interesting to know where you are coming from with your very scientific posts and what interest you have in this forum. Genuine questions.

Fair questions

I'm not a scientist per se, but have studied it personally for a number of years. I'm still a rank amateur, and don't pretend to be otherwise. My interest in the forum came from a recent bout of illness (about 5 weeks ago), followed by some bad/sporadic eating, and then I found a blood glucose meter I had at home, and tested myself over the course of a couple of weeks after illness, and found that my fasting BG was up above 10 on multiple occasions. One day it was 12. And my BG was spiking massively after meals for about 2 weeks (again, around 10-12 quite often). I was testing myself around 4-5 times a day, and found that I rarely got below 6, and was often at 8 mmol even a few hours after meals.

So I did some googling, and found various web pages, and forums, which were basically saying I "have diabetes". And frankly, I found most of the pages to be nonsense. And then started reading more about insulin, insulin resistance, and the link to the incredibly lucrative insulin industry, and started testing various things out. I began tracking calories, meal timings, and adding in various supplements I was reading about: magnesium, biotin, aspirin, upping my dose of thyroid hormone, sodium, potassium, fixing breathing patterns etc... and found my fasting BG and postprandial coming down quickly to "pre-diabetic" to "normal" levels. My fasting BG this morning was 5.5, for example, and 1.5 hour postprandial on a meal today was 5.8. So whatever I'm doing is working. Not had hba1c measured yet, but I will. It's clear that insulin is not the only thing that affects BG, yet most of the sciencey pages only talk about it. It seems weird.

So i'm sorta here to figure out if I "have diabetes" like a website said based on my BG numbers from a few weeks ago, (and apparently today don't have diabetes!), and see what other people are doing. I'm quite shocked that the solution seems to be "don't eat much glucose", since it doesn't treat the underlying issue. It's like saying "I used to get sore from going to the gym, but i'm over that now, since I no longer go to the gym". No one talks about glycolysis, gluconeogenesis, the Randle cycle, CO2 production, lactate, cortisol, adrenaline, calcium, oxidative metabolism, thyroid etc. It's all LCHF. It's weird. I'm not here to preach, I just find it interesting for some reason. I tend to get quite into a topic for a while, then move on

But I guess if I can't keep my BG under control, or the hba1c comes back bad, then I'll have to reconsider my positions!

 

[Brunneria]

Why would you want to remove stored glycogen?

Because sustained ketosis won’t happen while there are glycogen stores for the liver to dip into. The stores need to run down for fat adaptation to happen.

Many of us keto/low carbers aim for as low glycogen as possible and as sustained keto as possible.

If you want sensible, scientific stuff on the how and the why, I recommend Voleck and Phinney’s the art and science of low carb living.
Its an oldie but a goodie.

And the reason many of us go on about LCHF is because it works for so many of us

 

[Member496333]

Diabetes is characterised by too much glucose in the body. The solution is to remove the glucose, not put more in. But I guess whatever works for the individual

 

[torchman2]

Diabetes is characterised by too much glucose in the body. The solution is to remove the glucose, not put more in. But I guess whatever works for the individual

OK, i'm still reading about this, so my opinion below is definitely not fully-formed, and will probably be contentious

But I would say that Diabetes is diagnosed by too much glucose in the body. That's a symptom of the issue, not a cause. The solution is to train the body to metabolise glucose through proper oxidative metabolism, not simply remove glucose.

As my post above said, it's the equivalent of saying "i get pain after doing weights at the gym. So the solution is not to go to the gym any more". Rather than training yourself to be able to handle doing that weight training. Thoughts?

If you train your body to metabolise fat/fatty acids, then by definition you remain insulin resistant. Randle Cycle etc..

Anyway, it's late!

 

[Member496333]

Yeaaaaaah

 

[Bluetit1802]

OK, i'm still reading about this, so my opinion below is definitely not fully-formed, and will probably be contentious

But I would say that Diabetes is diagnosed by too much glucose in the body. That's a symptom of the issue, not a cause. The solution is to train the body to metabolise glucose through proper oxidative metabolism, not simply remove glucose.

As my post above said, it's the equivalent of saying "i get pain after doing weights at the gym. So the solution is not to go to the gym any more". Rather than training yourself to be able to handle doing that weight training. Thoughts?

If you train your body to metabolise fat/fatty acids, then by definition you remain insulin resistant. Randle Cycle etc..

Anyway, it's late!

High glucose does not come first. It all starts with high insulin levels. This in turn creates insulin resistance. Insulin resistance requires even more insulin to "clear" the ingested glucose from the blood stream. Vicious circle. This can go on for decades before glucose levels are high enough for a T2 diagnosis. Meanwhile, as insulin is a fat carrying hormone various things happen and weight gain ensues in many people. (not all). The weight gain is a symptom, not a cause. So if high insulin levels are stage 1, it makes sense to reduce the insulin levels. The best way to do this is by reducing/avoiding foods that cause insulin spikes. These foods are mainly starchy carbs and fruit, although other foods are also insulinogenic. (Happily, butter creates absolutely zero insulin spikes.). Reduce the need for insulin = less or no insulin resistance = normal glucose levels. As a bonus, many also lose the weight.

 

[Member496333]

High glucose does not come first. It all starts with high insulin levels. This in turn creates insulin resistance. Insulin resistance requires even more insulin to "clear" the ingested glucose from the blood stream. Vicious circle. This can go on for decades before glucose levels are high enough for a T2 diagnosis. Meanwhile, as insulin is a fat carrying hormone various things happen and weight gain ensues in many people. (not all). The weight gain is a symptom, not a cause. So if high insulin levels are stage 1, it makes sense to reduce the insulin levels. The best way to do this is by reducing/avoiding foods that cause insulin spikes. These foods are mainly starchy carbs and fruit, although other foods are also insulinogenic. (Happily, butter creates absolutely zero insulin spikes.). Reduce the need for insulin = less or no insulin resistance = normal glucose levels. As a bonus, many also lose the weight.

Or you could just cure your diabetes with an aspirin and regular meal times like torchman did?

Just kidding. All in good spirits

 

[Brunneria]

OK, i'm still reading about this, so my opinion below is definitely not fully-formed, and will probably be contentious

But I would say that Diabetes is diagnosed by too much glucose in the body. That's a symptom of the issue, not a cause. The solution is to train the body to metabolise glucose through proper oxidative metabolism, not simply remove glucose.

As my post above said, it's the equivalent of saying "i get pain after doing weights at the gym. So the solution is not to go to the gym any more". Rather than training yourself to be able to handle doing that weight training. Thoughts?

If you train your body to metabolise fat/fatty acids, then by definition you remain insulin resistant. Randle Cycle etc..

Anyway, it's late!

You may find the www.bloodsugar101.com website interesting for information on how and why type 2 diabetes develops, and why ‘training your body to metabolise glucose’is rarely successful and often does more harm than good.

I would also recommend a mosey through the main diabetes.co.uk website for more information on the different types of diabetes, treatment and control methods. It is a vast and complex subject, and it takes a while to pick up the nuances.

 

[bulkbiker]

then it results in cortisol being released to break down muscle tissue and fat to release glucose (gluconeogenesis).

Gluconeogenesis is a demand driven process that uses dietary protein to make glucose to fuel the brain if and when required. The brain can also run on ketones which is what it does when ketosis is achieved by reducing dietary carbohydrate to a minimum.
I would suggest you watch Dr Ben Bikman in this video who explains a lot of dietary science extremely fluently.

 

[kokhongw]

I'm quite shocked that the solution seems to be "don't eat much glucose", since it doesn't treat the underlying issue. It's like saying "I used to get sore from going to the gym, but i'm over that now, since I no longer go to the gym".

Perhaps we could also say that to recovering alcoholics?

More T2D are carboholics and the issue is an inability to metabolize the huge amount of glucose ingested and reduced betacells mass. So it does appears to work better to ease the load and demand needed to process carbs. It is a simplistic approach, that probably explains why it works about half the time for most studies.

A normal brain may function really well with glucose...until it becomes insulin resistant and have impaired glucose uptake. That's when ketones could come to the rescue? Or perhaps ketones was the preferred fuel in the first place...

 

[Guzzler]

Fair questions

I'm not a scientist per se, but have studied it personally for a number of years. I'm still a rank amateur, and don't pretend to be otherwise. My interest in the forum came from a recent bout of illness (about 5 weeks ago), followed by some bad/sporadic eating, and then I found a blood glucose meter I had at home, and tested myself over the course of a couple of weeks after illness, and found that my fasting BG was up above 10 on multiple occasions. One day it was 12. And my BG was spiking massively after meals for about 2 weeks (again, around 10-12 quite often). I was testing myself around 4-5 times a day, and found that I rarely got below 6, and was often at 8 mmol even a few hours after meals.

So I did some googling, and found various web pages, and forums, which were basically saying I "have diabetes". And frankly, I found most of the pages to be nonsense. And then started reading more about insulin, insulin resistance, and the link to the incredibly lucrative insulin industry, and started testing various things out. I began tracking calories, meal timings, and adding in various supplements I was reading about: magnesium, biotin, aspirin, upping my dose of thyroid hormone, sodium, potassium, fixing breathing patterns etc... and found my fasting BG and postprandial coming down quickly to "pre-diabetic" to "normal" levels. My fasting BG this morning was 5.5, for example, and 1.5 hour postprandial on a meal today was 5.8. So whatever I'm doing is working. Not had hba1c measured yet, but I will. It's clear that insulin is not the only thing that affects BG, yet most of the sciencey pages only talk about it. It seems weird.

So i'm sorta here to figure out if I "have diabetes" like a website said based on my BG numbers from a few weeks ago, (and apparently today don't have diabetes!), and see what other people are doing. I'm quite shocked that the solution seems to be "don't eat much glucose", since it doesn't treat the underlying issue. It's like saying "I used to get sore from going to the gym, but i'm over that now, since I no longer go to the gym". No one talks about glycolysis, gluconeogenesis, the Randle cycle, CO2 production, lactate, cortisol, adrenaline, calcium, oxidative metabolism, thyroid etc. It's all LCHF. It's weird. I'm not here to preach, I just find it interesting for some reason. I tend to get quite into a topic for a while, then move on

But I guess if I can't keep my BG under control, or the hba1c comes back bad, then I'll have to reconsider my positions!

Being given the diagnosis of Diabetes tends to focus the mind on how to get out of the danger zone the quickest, easiest way possible, hence the rush to get bg levels as close to normal as we can manage. Next comes the research into the mechanics of the condition. Plus, as the cause/s are still as yet unknown and because the human metabolism is (as has been described by my favourite boffin) an exquisitely intricate mechanism then it takes time and effort to get one's head around it all. This is a life long condition, not a hobby.

 

[Jaylee]

Fair questions

I'm not a scientist per se, but have studied it personally for a number of years. I'm still a rank amateur, and don't pretend to be otherwise. My interest in the forum came from a recent bout of illness (about 5 weeks ago), followed by some bad/sporadic eating, and then I found a blood glucose meter I had at home, and tested myself over the course of a couple of weeks after illness, and found that my fasting BG was up above 10 on multiple occasions. One day it was 12. And my BG was spiking massively after meals for about 2 weeks (again, around 10-12 quite often). I was testing myself around 4-5 times a day, and found that I rarely got below 6, and was often at 8 mmol even a few hours after meals.

So I did some googling, and found various web pages, and forums, which were basically saying I "have diabetes". And frankly, I found most of the pages to be nonsense. And then started reading more about insulin, insulin resistance, and the link to the incredibly lucrative insulin industry, and started testing various things out. I began tracking calories, meal timings, and adding in various supplements I was reading about: magnesium, biotin, aspirin, upping my dose of thyroid hormone, sodium, potassium, fixing breathing patterns etc... and found my fasting BG and postprandial coming down quickly to "pre-diabetic" to "normal" levels. My fasting BG this morning was 5.5, for example, and 1.5 hour postprandial on a meal today was 5.8. So whatever I'm doing is working. Not had hba1c measured yet, but I will. It's clear that insulin is not the only thing that affects BG, yet most of the sciencey pages only talk about it. It seems weird.

So i'm sorta here to figure out if I "have diabetes" like a website said based on my BG numbers from a few weeks ago, (and apparently today don't have diabetes!), and see what other people are doing. I'm quite shocked that the solution seems to be "don't eat much glucose", since it doesn't treat the underlying issue. It's like saying "I used to get sore from going to the gym, but i'm over that now, since I no longer go to the gym". No one talks about glycolysis, gluconeogenesis, the Randle cycle, CO2 production, lactate, cortisol, adrenaline, calcium, oxidative metabolism, thyroid etc. It's all LCHF. It's weird. I'm not here to preach, I just find it interesting for some reason. I tend to get quite into a topic for a while, then move on

But I guess if I can't keep my BG under control, or the hba1c comes back bad, then I'll have to reconsider my positions!

Hi,
Wellcome to the forum.

Get yourself officially checked out by a doctor & confirm either way..
You need a solid "reference point" before a move in any direction...

Good luck!

 

[kokhongw]

I began tracking calories, meal timings, and adding in various supplements I was reading about: magnesium, biotin, aspirin, upping my dose of thyroid hormone, sodium, potassium, fixing breathing patterns etc... and found my fasting BG and postprandial coming down quickly to "pre-diabetic" to "normal" levels. My fasting BG this morning was 5.5, for example, and 1.5 hour postprandial on a meal today was 5.8. So whatever I'm doing is working. Not had hba1c measured yet, but I will. It's clear that insulin is not the only thing that affects BG, yet most of the sciencey pages only talk about it. It seems weird.

The challenge would be to determine which of the changed parameters was the effective one and how do we apply it to others.

Were you in any way overweight or obese? Have your weight or waistline changed since you applied your changes? Or was your elevated glucose due to acute stress events?

The general LCHF/IF approach is specific to those of us who have been overweight for years, if not decades. The underlying issue is that we have been living with high levels of insulin, that inhibits fats utilization. Lower it enough and the fats store gets released. Other factors may come to play as each individual have their idiosyncracy. But lowering insulin is simple enough for most of us to understand and follow...

 

[kokhongw]

No, if the body senses it has insufficient glucose, then it results in cortisol being released to break down muscle tissue and fat to release glucose (gluconeogenesis). Excess, prolonged high cortisol has impact on brain, heart, skin, sleep, etc. The brain primarily runs on glucose as preferential energy source, so we need it http://neuro.hms.harvard.edu/harvar...n-newsletter/and-brain-series/sugar-and-brain

That's a nice article...and I like this because it recognized that our T2D brain does become insulin resistant...and require additional help

Type 2 diabetes accelerates brain aging,” says Novak, “which, in turn accelerates the progression of functional decline. With intranasal insulin, we’re hoping to find a new avenue for treatment to slow down these effects or prevent them altogether.”

But you may also find the research by Stephen Cunnane interesting offering an alternative viewpoint