Job discrimination because of diabetes

Hi.

Whilst I sympathise with what you would like to do as regards driving, I am afraid that for many and varied reasons I don't disagree with the ban on drivers who are on Insulin being not allowed to drive LGV/PCV vehicles. As you say there are many occupations that are resticted but in my view with good cause.

I personally would not like to be on a PCV with a driver who could be having a hypo whilst at the wheel ? As for a similar circumstance with the driver of a fully laden 44 tonne LGV on the Motorway.....The thought of that makes my blood run cold. It matters not to me what monitoring or good control that person may have. I want my nearest and dearest to be safe.

That to me is the overriding priority.

So sorry, I shan't be signing the petition.

Sorry djs, I can't support you.I can no longer drive due to a disability, and I quite agree with the consultant who advised me to give up while I was not yet a threat to the public. Yes, this causes me hardship as I live in an isolated area, but the greater good of all is what counts. Sorry dear.
Val

Hi djs.

Have a read of this Court record. Names removed.

A lorry driver suffering from diabetes who fell unconscious at the wheel and killed a young family, has been jailed for three years.
D******* 67, of mid Glamorgan, was found guilty of dangerous driving after causing the deaths of T********, 24, E**********, 19, and their baby daughter S*******.
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No words of mine or sentence this court imposes will ever undo what you have done
Recorder Mr T**********
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Recorder Mr T******** told Shropshire Crown Court that D****** - who suffered from diabetes - had known he was having an attack before he fell unconscious at the wheel.
His lorry veered over the A41 near Market Drayton and smashed into a Skoda.
The hearing was told that the couple had been discussing getting married after moving to live near Whitchurch, Shropshire, only one month before the accident in May ***9..

Mr T****** told the court that D****** had crashed into a barrier on the M5 near Bristol a few years before, but in that incident no-one was hurt.
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You are a broken and devastated man. You, I know, will have to live with this for the rest of your life
Recorder Mr T*********
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He was permitted to carry on driving by doctors provided he took proper medication and took emergency supplies of sugar in the lorry.
But Mr T******* described D******* as a "continuing risk" to the public on the roads and took the unusual step of banning him from driving for the rest of his life.
He told the defendant: "You started to feel the symptoms with which you were familiar.

"But instead of stopping when you could, you decided to carry on driving for several miles. As a result three people lost their lives.

"This is not an easy case in which to pass sentence. No words of mine or sentence this court imposes will ever undo what you have done.

He added: "You are a broken and devastated man. You, I know, will have to live with this for the rest of your life."

N**********, defending, apologised to the victims' families on behalf of his client.

He described D****** as a "caring, compassionate man" and told the court that the accident had been a tragedy for him, leaving him distraught and depressed and already facing a "life sentence".

Hi djs.

When the accident happened is not relevant. It is the fact that 3 people lost their lives because of the actions of a driver who was having a hypo and chose to ignore it. He knew the risks and yet he carried on driving putting himself and other road users at risk.

He got off quite lightly in my view. A driver who you would probably describe as responsible prior to the accident. Why was he ever allowed back behind the wheel after the first accident ? They got it all wrong with him and look at the consequences.

Anybody who is on hypo inducing medication is a danger to us all on the roads if they do not control their diabetes and stick to the rules and advice. If I am travelling a long journey, as I do quite often, I check my Bg levels before I drive and I also stop regularly and check them again. That way I know I am safe and competent to drive.

However I do not have the care of a 44 tonne artic or a 70+ seater bus ? If I did there is no way I would want to drive such a vehicle on the roads. Too much of a responsibilty in my view. What if my hypo awareness was not good, what if I wasn't able to stop when I needed to inject, eat something or just to take a break ? That's why someone on Insulin should never be allowed to drive such massive vehicles.

OUR safety is paramount, not the dreams and wishes of someone who has alternatives in life. We all had setbacks when deciding on careers, I too once dreamed of being an Airline Pilot. Never happened, but I got over it. Same as you will.

I haven't a decided opinion on this one. (driving jobs and diabetes)
On the one hand there are events such as the one cited by Cugila, there are also at least 2 members of this forum who have had accidents whilst hypo.
On the other hand there was a recent piece of research into driving and insulin treated diabetics in the Devon and Cornwall area which showed no difference in accident rates between insulin treated diabetics and non diabetics http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/119405158/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0#ss1 and indeed some of us might say we are more careful because of the risks.
It is also true that UK regulations are stricter than in some parts of Europe. They are supposed to be the same but the UK seems to interpret things rather differently. This could mean that professional drivers with diabetes from other parts of the EU are driving in the UK

As for pilots, you might be interested in this website (though it hasn't a great deal on it,it is a contact point)
http://www.pilotswithdiabetes.com/index.html

STATISTICS.
1. Statistically people with diabetes have no more accidents than people without diabetes.

2. But of 2000 accidents caused by collapse at the wheel, 340 of the people had diabetes.

3. Total hypo unawareness involves only 1-2% of the diabetic population but up to one third report intermittent problems in recognising hypoglycaemia.

I could give many more but as with all statistics you can prove what you want, they dont really prove anything. It all depends on which little box was ticked by somebody.

Thanks for the Pilot link Phoenix, but I think I am a bit too old to consider that now..... :?
Mind you the thought of a diabetic T1 Pilot in charge of 640+ souls 40000 feet up in the air....now THAT does worry me. :shock:

Mind you it isn't just a hypo that is bad - someone who is hyperglycaemic is also a liability. Ever seen a lorry driver falling asleep at the wheel. I have, right in front of me. Turned out he had a Bg level of 24 mmol/l when he was taken to hospital. Tiredness and Diabetes out of control can be a killer ! He knew what was happening and was just going to stop a 'bit later on ?' Fortunately, on this occasion it was just himself that got hurt and the truck 'written off.' Could have been much worse.

As long as the auto pilot is not diabetic there would be no problem.

The HGV issue I would not be able to support, its in place for a reason, its a sad fact that hypos are not always predictable. Driving an HGV is not like driving a car. Long hours, missed meal breaks, and in a car you can be pulled up on the hard shoulder quite quick if you feel a bit hypo. Not so easy in a wagon. 40 TON of wagon out of control on a motorway because the driver is hypo is not worth thinking about.

HGV can't do an emergency stop (like a car) it has to do a controlled stop, the driver has to take into account the load, the amount of axles, type of brakes etc. You can fail an HGV test for pulling up too short.! Slamming the brakes on with a 40 foot trailer on the back is not like slamming the brakes on in a Ford Focus.

So a car driver having a hypo or should I say hypo symptoms "could" pull over and stop the car quite quick and as long as he / she stops the motion of the car the danger is limited, even if they end up having a full hypo.

HGV driver in that same position will not get enough time and could well have passed out before stopping.

Even the best controlled diabetic can have a hypo, you can test your BG as many times as you want but it can still happen, its a known risk for insulin dependant diabetics.

Heart attacks and strokes can affect anyone at anytime.

A lot of people are born or get disabilities far worse than diabetes and for them discrimination is a way of life, diabetes is a minor inconvenience compared to what some people have to put up with and not just in jobs either.

Bing Bong! Good morning ladies and gentlemen this is Captain Carbeater and I will be your pilot today, I am an insulin dependant diabetic, but don't worry I haven't had a hypo for over a week now


Bet that would fill you with confidence

Cugila -

I find your sweeping generalisations and comments really quite irritating. I was a bus driver for over 6 years before being diagnosed with Type 1 diabetes in my late 20s. Obviously, under current driving laws, I had my PCV licence revoked and lost my job as a bus driver. As a consequence of this, I lost my financial security and ultimately had a breakdown. That was my job, that was what I chose to do and that was what made me happy.

Who is it to decide that I'm incapable of monitoring my blood sugar whilst driving a bus? Do you really think I'd set out to kill passengers? Don't you think I'd be more motivated to be a model diabetic because my job, my long-term security depended on it? Believe me, there are bus drivers out there who drink, do drugs, smoke, have had heart attacks, have Parkinsons (yes, they can keep their PCV licence) and a host of other ailments. Bus drivers diagnosed as insulin dependent pre-1991 still have their licences. Perhaps you've been driven by one???!!!! Even those with Type 2 can keep their PCV licence...provided they're tablet controlled. But even those on tablets can have severe problems that in your opinion would put them at risk as a driver.

Instead of being so narrow minded and assuming everyone on insulin would be out to kill if they held a heavy goods licence/pcv licence, perhaps you could be supportive and suggest individual assessment with respect to these licences.

To end, I'm now a serving police officer. I'm allowed to drive response cars and riot vans on response. What do you think of that, Cugila, and all those with the ridiculous view that those on insulin are an automatic danger? Do you think I'm a danger? Are you above my driving assessors? Do you think they're wrong? I spend many a night chasing drunken drivers, so on and so forth. I'm respected with a good reputation.

Your thoughts Cugila? I'd be really interested.

I for one will be signing the petition........I don't generalise and I believe in individuality and as such people being assessed as individuals.

Rant over.

Oh Dear.

Irritating.......Well I would have thought that as a Police Officer you would be more understanding. show's how things have changed then....? As for response vehicles ....riot vans....such experience ? When I was working you only needed a grade 3 for them. I raise my hat (if I wore one) to you. One of our finest.

The OP asked for feedback. I gave it. I don't feel the need to ask permission from anybody to do that. I haven't told anybody that they are making sweeping statements, that their opinion is wrong. I just gave some feeedback on a subject which is serious and that I find important.

I was always taught that safety of the public is THE priority not somebody's wishes to be able to do something. That is my overriding concern !

As for the fact that the driving standards in the Police Service have been 'dumbed down' shall we say, I regret that and find it is regrettable. When I was on Traffic nobody on Insulin was allowed to drive the Patrol Cars, they were put back on ordinary less stressful driving duties. Now, we could have a discussion about that, but that would totally derail the OP's post where he asked for feedback on the subject. That is all I gave. Just not to your liking obviously. I can live with that.

So, first of all there are no sweeping generalisations. They are my opinions. We can all have them you know ?

I hold a PCV/LGV licemce which I have had since the 70's. Category C+E. Trained by the WMP. Previous to this I had a HGV licence as I worked for British Road Services as both a driver and a mechanic. I have driven buses/coaches many times as well, did some 'moonlighting' to make ends meet !

I was a serving Police Traffic Officer until I retired in 1997 after 28 years service.

I hold a Grade 1 Police Driving qualification (96% on my drive) from the West Midlands Police Driving School, considered to be one of the highest driving qualifications anywhere. I am still proud to display that on my wall. I am a Member of the Institute of Advanced Motorists.

I spent nearly 20 yrs of my service as a Specialist in Accident Re-Construction tech niques, Vehicle Examinations and was considered an 'expert' when giving evidence at Court on all these matters. I trained many Traffic Officers in both the regulations, various techniques etc. I was operational at the same time and on a daily basis dealt with mostly fatal and serious accidents as the WMP area is extemely busy. I also worked on the Motorway Section regularly because of my expertise. I spent a considerable time examining goods vehicle of all sorts, PCV's of all sorts and also checking drivers hours etc. Checking vehicles and drivers both before and after accidents. I worked with the DOT(VOSA) and have qualifications that I gained through them. I could go on, but I think you get my drift....... :?:

I know very well what the regulations are, I keep up to date with them all, including EC Regs. I do freelance work as well. People come to me for advice and information. This is given and is always correct and up to date. So, I know all about the 'grandfather' rights with pre-1991 drivers. I don't agree with it, but I had to and still do comply with the law. Sometimes the law makers are asses ?
I sympathise with what happened to you but none of that is going to change my view.

So as far as I am concerned I think my opinion has merit. I didn't ask you or anybody else to agree with it. Just a point of view.

As for your opinion, well, you are entitled to it. I don't agree with you and never will. :wink:

Your 'history' is irrelevant. And yes, your comments are highly 'irritating'.

You're missing the point. You ARE making a sweeping generalisation, can you not appreciate that?? Your opinion is suggesting that ALL people on insulin are a danger and therefore should not be allowed behind the wheel of a large vehicle. By the sounds of it, you're suggesting people on insulin should even dare to get behind a wheel of any sort.

Your suggestion that police driving standards have been "dummed down" is quite offensive. Are you suggesting I shouldn't be able to drive response vehicles?

Losing my licence and my job cost me an awful lot. What is your problem with individual assessment??

Of course you're entitled to your opinions and SWEEPING GENERALISATIONS. I am, however, very surprised that someone of your calibre is so narrow-minded.

You....call it narrow minded. I call it experience. Enough said.

You've worked in a sphere where the most important thing is to treat people as individuals.

Enough said.

Speaking as an INDIVIDUAL you are quite right.

Don't remember working in a 'sphere' though .....must be an age thing ? :wink:

djs1990 said:

Hey there,

Have you ever noticed here in the UK we as diabetics, type 1 or 2, we are discriminated against in certain jobs and sectors even though there is no real need for it (the likes of the army would be understandable though).

Right now I am 19 and no idea what I want to do with life, there a couple of jobs I would love to go in such directions however my 'disability' immediatly puts me out such as the airline industry, I have a dream of being a pilot but know as a diabetic unless they actually discover a cure that that is all it will ever be, a dream!

What I would like to see would be diabetics being abel to driver the likes of LGVs and HGVs as long as they monitor their blood sugars and it is reviewed by a doctor every so often, I know we can't change the the likes of aviations laws as they are european but if we can at least make a start.

Any signatures would be greatly appreciated and any feedback and discussion would be welcome too, thanks

http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/DiabeticHGVban/

Click to expand...

As this thread was derailed I think it is only right that it should be put back on track. Fresh comments invited about the OP's point, more opinions perhaps ?

djs1990,

I think common sense must prevail in such matters of employment, regarding employing people living with diabetes.

In everyday tasks of work, employers are required and duty bound to carry out a risk assessment of each aspect of their employee's responsibilities. Each individual must be assessed on their ability to carry out their work safely, responsibily and without risk to themselves or others around them. Therefore, lets say someone with back problems should not be expected to lift heavy objects which would be detrimental to their health.

When I was younger, and as a child, I always wanted to drive HGV's, but upon being diagnosed with diabetes at 18yrs old, I knew that this would be beyond my reach, and put all desire's of driving trucks far behind me. Looking back over the years, I am pleased that this was the case, as my control in my early years was erratic to say the least!

Years ago, I would have proberly thump someone who said that the law was right to discriminate against people such as myself, from driving trucks, buses or any other form of public transport, however, my view has changed somewhat, perhaps because I am older and wiser, or I may have succumb to the accept such things: I am almost sure it is the former.

I don' think that I could sit comfortable with the idea of people who have diabetes flying aeroplanes, coaches or trains, no matter how well controlled; public safety is paramount, and this must always come before people's self interest to fulfil positions of employment where accidents and risk of injury is probable.

In other aspects of employment, where safety is not a issue, diabetes should not be used to discriminate against people who are most suitable to fulfil positions along with their counterpart's.

Regards

Nigel