Keto or Low carb

Its all about the degree of carb restriction
https://www.bodyandsoul.com.au/heal...e/news-story/d6795793bbc136b0ac70feff479d31f0
This link defines keto as being a diet with carbs under 50g daily and the lchf spectrum as starting at anything under 120g. Some here and elsewhere define keto as starting under 20g carbs daily.
As with everything about diabetes and diet, the only way to know whether the diet you are following is useful to your diabetic control is try it and test the effects - for me 35-50g carbs a day seems to work - it doesnt matter a stuff to me what dietary label that conforms to

Keto means your body is in a state of ketosis ( ie adapted to burning fat and producing ketones). It is very low carb rather than low carb.

Keto is always low carb
Low carb is not always keto.

I alternate between LCHF and keto. I do keto, which for me is less than 30g carbs daily (less than 20g is better but harder for me to achieve)

I do keto to lose weight as LCHF does not allow me to lose weight anymore. I don't do keto all the time because I don't enjoy the diet enough to do it for the rest of my life. I do enjoy how keto makes me feel though.

LCHF (for me 50g - 80g carbs daily) is good enough to keep my BGs OK, but not good enough to allow me to lose weight. The extra grams of carbs allow me to have a small amount of berries and more veg than I would have on keto and so LCHF is a more enjoyable diet food wise for me. However my brain and body perform much better on keto.

Logically there is no difference in the method, just a shorthand labeling.

Resurgam said:

Logically there is no difference in the method, just a shorthand labeling.

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The big difference for me is that on keto I am in ketosis the whole time during the 24 hour period.
On LCHF I go in and out of ketosis during the day and therefore don't lose weight.

'Classic' low carbing, as per Atkins, tailors carb intake according to your weightloss - so if maintaining weight is not the intention, the method is incorrect.

Resurgam said:

'Classic' low carbing, as per Atkins, tailors carb intake according to your weightloss - so if maintaining weight is not the intention, the method is incorrect.

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Atkins surely is (and was) very low carb? All about weight loss?

LCHF is about controlling T2 ( and other health problems) and is good enough for most T2s. This is primarily a diabetes forum and most diabetics are concerned with BG control first and foremost and also having a diet that is sustainable for life. There is no way I could do Atkins forever, I would never even try it again. My own brand of keto ( mostly veggies) works for me though.

Resurgam said:

Logically there is no difference in the method, just a shorthand labeling.

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Not really.. being in ketosis is a specific "thing" it is very hard to be in ketosis ( i.e. running your body on ketone bodies) when ingesting too many carbs. I will agree that the specific level of carbs will be individual which is why to virtually "guarantee" ketosis most will try and stay to 20g of carbs or fewer daily. Elite athletes can maybe maintain ketosis on more carbs but for the regular Type 2 in the street I would say that 50g daily is probably the absolute max and not everyone can maintain it at that level.
In the Virta health study compliance with the diet is assured by measuring blood ketones regularly which will reflect carb consumption.

Old Testament or New Testament?

The original Atkins book was written by {gasp} Atkins. The new version was written by Volek and Phinney. Who are major LCHF advocates.

I think that a ketogenic diet has a much broader reach than LCHF. You don't need high fat to get into ketosis, you just need low carbohydrate. Fasting alone will also do it.

Hmmm....Newcastle Diet is a very low calorie diet and can lead to rapid weight loss especially for the obese. This implies that nearly all energy requirements are being met from body fat reserves. This in turn implies nutritional ketosis, as fat is turned into ketones.

Conclusion, ketogenic diets are not synonymous with LCHF although LCHF can take you into ketosis (as stated more succinctly above).

LittleGreyCat said:

Volek and Phinney. Who are major LCHF advocates.

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In fact major ketogenic diet advocates.. which is why they both are involved in Virta health.

Whether doing keto or LCHF, the ability to be able to have as much fat as I want is important because it means I don't need willpower as I don't need to stay hungry. Just a cup of coffee with cream will fill me for hours.

The only way for someone to know if they are doing a Keto diet is to measure blook keytones at least every day, as some people will be in ketosis all the time when they are below 50g of carbs, yet other people need to get below 20g along with limiting protein.

Personly I expect I am keeping to a Kete diet, but as I don't care, provided my current low carb diet keeps giving me great results, I am not spending ££ for blood keytones test strips to find out. Hence I tell people I am keeping to a low carb diet, as clearly I am.

ringi said:

The only way for someone to know if they are doing a Keto diet is to measure blood keytones at least every day, as some people will be in ketosis all the time when they are below 50g of carbs, yet other people need to get below 20g along with limiting protein.

Personly I expect I am keeping to a Kete diet, but as I don't care, provided my current low carb diet keeps giving me great results, I am not spending ££ for blood keytones test strips to find out. Hence I tell people I am keeping to a low carb diet, as clearly I am.

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I agree with you. Since my weight loss stalled on a low carb diet I have been testing for ketones every morning (I found through testing a lot the first few days that for me they are at their lowest first thing, so I test then to make sure I am still producing ketones all day and night.) For me it's a necessary expense because I still need to lose a lot of weight... maybe another 4 stones. For most people though I expect that 'good enough' is good enough.

The difference is likely due to the varying degree of insulin resistance that we experienced and the amplified insulin response to carbs intake. The higher the circulating insulin, the faster we drop out of ketosis.

So while some of us may be able to maintain ketosis with 50-80 g, others may need 20g or less. Fasting is the sure way to reach ketosis within a couple of days...

Pinkorchid said:

Ketosis is a normal metabolic process. When the body does not have enough glucose for energy, it burns stored fats instead; this results in a build-up of acids called ketones within the body.

Found this on the web does not sound like it is a good thing isn't it bad to have ketones Don't think I want to burn my own body fat there would not be anything left of me

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Of course it would be a bad thing for you. You have always said you don't need to lose weight. No-one would ever suggest you did keto! Low carb yes, Keto no. For those of us who have body fat to burn it's a very good thing! How else are we to lose weight?

Pinkorchid said:

Ketosis is a normal metabolic process. When the body does not have enough glucose for energy, it burns stored fats instead; this results in a build-up of acids called ketones within the body.

Found this on the web does not sound like it is a good thing isn't it bad to have ketones Don't think I want to burn my own body fat there would not be anything left of me

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Under normal circumstances if we're producing our own insulin, ketones aren't necessarily an issue. However don't confuse ketosis with diabetic ketoacidosis, - DKA - which can be a serous issue for T1 and others who may not be producing any or enough insulin. Shortage of insulin + very high ketone levels can cause a situation where there's an uncontrolled and potentially very dangerous increase in acid ketones in the blood, which can if untreated, lead to coma and possibly death.

(Dietary) ketosis implies much lower levels of ketones and is fine and is basically how our bodies are designed to work - we're able to use both carbs and fats as our sources of fuel (we're fat adapted.) Carbs are most easily processed, so are the first choice of fuel for energy, followed by dietary fats then stored fats. When you eat a high carb diet, you can still store fat but your body can no longer use it. Very low carb/keto will reset your body back to its fat burning mode - whether or not you then actually use your body fat. With low carb you can eat enough fat and produce ketones without necessarily needing to use your body fat.

Robbity

zand said:

Atkins surely is (and was) very low carb? All about weight loss?

LCHF is about controlling T2 ( and other health problems) and is good enough for most T2s. This is primarily a diabetes forum and most diabetics are concerned with BG control first and foremost and also having a diet that is sustainable for life. There is no way I could do Atkins forever, I would never even try it again. My own brand of keto ( mostly veggies) works for me though.

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Atkins New Diet Revolution is about controlling weight - there are the four stages which include maintenance, and also about metabolic resistance, insulin, diabetes, exercise, yeast overgrowth, heart disease, food intolerance, the dangers of low fat and high carbohydrate diets and lots of other stuff. I have followed many of the 'rules' I found in the Atkins book for a long time - and I eat a lot of veges too. I hope that I'll be able to do Atkins for a long time.