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LCHF and cholesterol

groover

Member
Messages
14
Type of diabetes
Prediabetes
Treatment type
Diet only
I'm new on here so not up to speed with all the acronyms. My BMI is about 24, weight 63 kg and height 163cm. Switched to LCHF to try and bring fasting BS down. Have had a Glucokinase test as seemed not to fit typical T2 but not that although letter says "does not exclude other types of MODY" No further action taken. I have had a Glucose Tolerance Test and that was very odd as my levels were lower at the end of 2 hours than when I got up. So decided to treat me as IFG - Impaired Fasting Glucose.

But what now? The LCHF did bring my fasting BS down for a while but now on the rise again. Last HBA1c was 46 down from 47 but cholesterol up to 6.2 (4.8), trigs 0.9 (0.6) HDL 2.2 (1.7) LDL 3.6(2.8)

What ratios should I look at? The GP rang me up about cholesterol and wanted me on statins, another GP wants me to take Metformin to increase insulin sensitivity.

Why do I get high fasting BS - nearly everyday?
 
Go to the reactive hypoglycemia section there, there are people there that might be able to help, thinking of Nosher and Brunneria- the odd GTT test I have same results but I dip after one hour and not three due to an overshoot of insulin


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I'm new on here so not up to speed with all the acronyms. My BMI is about 24, weight 63 kg and height 163cm. Switched to LCHF to try and bring fasting BS down. Have had a Glucokinase test as seemed not to fit typical T2 but not that although letter says "does not exclude other types of MODY" No further action taken. I have had a Glucose Tolerance Test and that was very odd as my levels were lower at the end of 2 hours than when I got up. So decided to treat me as IFG - Impaired Fasting Glucose.

But what now? The LCHF did bring my fasting BS down for a while but now on the rise again. Last HBA1c was 46 down from 47 but cholesterol up to 6.2 (4.8), trigs 0.9 (0.6) HDL 2.2 (1.7) LDL 3.6(2.8)

What ratios should I look at? The GP rang me up about cholesterol and wanted me on statins, another GP wants me to take Metformin to increase insulin sensitivity.

Why do I get high fasting BS - nearly everyday?

The ratio that is most important is the total/HDL which should be under 4.

What sort of post meal rises do you see? (From before to after). What sort of time do you peak, and how long does it take you to get back to base?
 
A lot see a rise with saturated fats.

Good, healthy, non saturated fats give good results with cholesterol.
What is your fasting BG?
LCHF can raise it.
 
A lot see a rise with saturated fats.

Good, healthy, non saturated fats give good results with cholesterol.
What is your fasting BG?
LCHF can raise it.

Are you implying LCHF raises the fasting blood score or lipids, SXP? Your post isn't too clear.
 
Are you implying LCHF raises the fasting blood score or lipids, SXP? Your post isn't too clear.

'Can'
Stating, not implying.

SXP?
I don't do text speak I'm afraid, way too old for that.
 
So decided to treat me as IFG - Impaired Fasting Glucose.

But what now? The LCHF did bring my fasting BS down for a while but now on the rise again. Last HBA1c was 46 down from 47 but cholesterol up to 6.2 (4.8), trigs 0.9 (0.6) HDL 2.2 (1.7) LDL 3.6(2.8)

What ratios should I look at? The GP rang me up about cholesterol and wanted me on statins, another GP wants me to take Metformin to increase insulin sensitivity.

Why do I get high fasting BS - nearly everyday?
Lipoprotein ratios are old hat. The really important measures are the HDL and trigs, and this is especially true when the HDL is quite high (> 1.5). Also crucial, the blood pressure. Statins? -- horrors! They can be toxic and they actually cause diabetes in a few percent. Anyway, the LDL is barely worth concern.

Maybe the closest science is to knowing "why IFG?" is this 2009 article by Faerch. Pathophysiology and aetiology of impaired fasting glycaemia and impaired glucose tolerance: does it matter for prevention and treatment of type 2 diabetes? Published in EASD.org's journal. The authors say liver (hepatic) insulin resistance is one of the components of isolated IFG (IFG with IGT). The GP's recommendation for metformin is consistent with this theory. At the same time, muscle IR is low in IFG individuals. Insulin resistance occurs in the skeletal muscles, the liver, and the depots of visceral (deep) fat. IR may be disparate across the different tissues.

Roughly speaking, the makeup of the prediabetes population is 65% IGT only, 25% IFG only, and 10% both.

How many months apart are the old and new sets of blood tests? What was the peak value on the OGTT (should not exceed about 8.0)? Like the others say, reactive hypoglycemia is a common thing. Occasionally, it happens to me, I get sleepy. I suppose it's not OK.

Several researchers oppose the principle of low total cholesterol, and they specifically see no cause for concern over a total "cholesterol" (= lipoprotein) of up to around 6.0. This is especially so if a person is lean, like you. On the other hand, your lipoprotein profile is up sharply. One innocent explanation is that maybe at 4.8, you were following advice for a militantly low "cholesterol" diet, maybe including avoidance of eggs. 4.8 is probably a deficient state, especially for men. The only new number that might truly be in excess is the LDL of 3.6, and that would be a small excess. The upward trend of the TG is unwelcome. However, its value is still quite healthy.

For many years, my lipid profile was
total lipoprotein 6.6, LDL 4.4, HDL 1.8, TG 1.1
The numbers were nearly identical from year to year. I sat around all day every day. BMI 19.5, fasting glucose low. Now I take long walks, and the current numbers are
5.2-5.7, 2.5, 2.5, 1.0.
BMI is 20.0 (these low BMI's are a misery). I've been dieting LCHF forever, unwittingly.
 
The ratio that is most important is the total/HDL which should be under 4.

What sort of post meal rises do you see? (From before to after). What sort of time do you peak, and how long does it take you to get back to base?
My GP isn't keen to prescribe testing strips and wants me to rely on HBA1c so I haven't been testing that much. I often test in the morning 7.5 to 9.0 typically. Since LCHF, down to mid 6's but now creeping back up again which makes me feel that the LCHF was only a temporary help.
Post-meal, I go from 6 to 13 sometimes although this spike has not been so high on LCHF.

Thanks for help
 
Are you implying LCHF raises the fasting blood score or lipids, SXP? Your post isn't too clear.
Sorry if not clear, I'm probably in a muddle myself to be honest. My fasting BG had been consistently 7.5 to 9 - but managed a few 6's since started LCHF in January. Now though, despite being more strict, my FBG's going up again. They were mid 6's for a while...
 
It's not unusual to see an increase in Fasting BG due to physiological insulin resistance.
When you become keto adapted, the body 'saves' glucose for the brain, so the muscles don't use it as they used to.
So your BG can actually rise for a period.
But, it seems to be a bit higher than others have reported.
Do you match the profile for a type 2, or could it be a different type of diabetes possibly?
Have you been tested, or was the diagnosis type 2, and that was it?
 
Sorry if not clear, I'm probably in a muddle myself to be honest. My fasting BG had been consistently 7.5 to 9 - but managed a few 6's since started LCHF in January. Now though, despite being more strict, my FBG's going up again. They were mid 6's for a while...

Have a consultation with Dr Google, having searched his resources for physiological insulin resistance.
 
Lipoprotein ratios are old hat. The really important measures are the HDL and trigs, and this is especially true when the HDL is quite high (> 1.5). Also crucial, the blood pressure. Statins? -- horrors! They can be toxic and they actually cause diabetes in a few percent. Anyway, the LDL is barely worth concern.

Maybe the closest science is to knowing "why IFG?" is this 2009 article by Faerch. Pathophysiology and aetiology of impaired fasting glycaemia and impaired glucose tolerance: does it matter for prevention and treatment of type 2 diabetes? Published in EASD.org's journal. The authors say liver (hepatic) insulin resistance is one of the components of isolated IFG (IFG with IGT). The GP's recommendation for metformin is consistent with this theory. At the same time, muscle IR is low in IFG individuals. Insulin resistance occurs in the skeletal muscles, the liver, and the depots of visceral (deep) fat. IR may be disparate across the different tissues.

Roughly speaking, the makeup of the prediabetes population is 65% IGT only, 25% IFG only, and 10% both.

How many months apart are the old and new sets of blood tests? What was the peak value on the OGTT (should not exceed about 8.0)? Like the others say, reactive hypoglycemia is a common thing. Occasionally, it happens to me, I get sleepy. I suppose it's not OK.

Several researchers oppose the principle of low total cholesterol, and they specifically see no cause for concern over a total "cholesterol" (= lipoprotein) of up to around 6.0. This is especially so if a person is lean, like you. On the other hand, your lipoprotein profile is up sharply. One innocent explanation is that maybe at 4.8, you were following advice for a militantly low "cholesterol" diet, maybe including avoidance of eggs. 4.8 is probably a deficient state, especially for men. The only new number that might truly be in excess is the LDL of 3.6, and that would be a small excess. The upward trend of the TG is unwelcome. However, its value is still quite healthy.

For many years, my lipid profile was
total lipoprotein 6.6, LDL 4.4, HDL 1.8, TG 1.1
The numbers were nearly identical from year to year. I sat around all day every day. BMI 19.5, fasting glucose low. Now I take long walks, and the current numbers are
5.2-5.7, 2.5, 2.5, 1.0.
BMI is 20.0 (these low BMI's are a misery). I've been dieting LCHF forever, unwittingly.
Wow..thanks for all the info. I will read the article and educate myself as to reactive hypoglycemia. The blood tests were quite far apart - I think 18 months or more - I'm going to record all the data I have properly. The increase in trigs coincides with me eating eggs almost every day as opposed to once or twice a week. I'm also eating lots of oily fish - mackerel, salmon etc and on full fat yogurt.

The OGTT was quite odd as FBG was 6.2 that day and then 5.8 after the 2 hours. I also find that any high result can be brought down by intense exercise but tend not to do exercise after evening meal.
 
Wow..thanks for all the info. I will read the article and educate myself as to reactive hypoglycemia. The blood tests were quite far apart - I think 18 months or more - I'm going to record all the data I have properly. The increase in trigs coincides with me eating eggs almost every day as opposed to once or twice a week. I'm also eating lots of oily fish - mackerel, salmon etc and on full fat yogurt.

The OGTT was quite odd as FBG was 6.2 that day and then 5.8 after the 2 hours. I also find that any high result can be brought down by intense exercise but tend not to do exercise after evening meal.

I personally tend to go with the mainstream view, avoid saturated fats, avoid dairy, and keep my cholesterol in the ranges considered healthy by the majority.
Others do believe raised cholesterol is the way to go thought, and eat saturated fats to raise it.
 
It's not unusual to see an increase in Fasting BG due to physiological insulin resistance.
When you become keto adapted, the body 'saves' glucose for the brain, so the muscles don't use it as they used to.
So your BG can actually rise for a period.
But, it seems to be a bit higher than others have reported.
Do you match the profile for a type 2, or could it be a different type of diabetes possibly?
Have you been tested, or was the diagnosis type 2, and that was it?
No I don't think I match the profile for T2 - I only found out because my son participates in the ALSPAC study and they started to investigate parents and up popped high fasting BS. It could be another type but in view of my age and not on any medication, not cost-effective to investigate further. I did see an endocinologist who was pretty convinced it would be Glucokinase but it isn't. It was suggested it could be T1 but apparently it would have progressed more quickly. My GP says it doesn't matter as Metformin would be first resort in any event. I would like to know what type but does it matter?
 
No I don't think I match the profile for T2 - I only found out because my son participates in the ALSPAC study and they started to investigate parents and up popped high fasting BS. It could be another type but in view of my age and not on any medication, not cost-effective to investigate further. I did see an endocinologist who was pretty convinced it would be Glucokinase but it isn't. It was suggested it could be T1 but apparently it would have progressed more quickly. My GP says it doesn't matter as Metformin would be first resort in any event. I would like to know what type but does it matter?

It seems to matter. Eg, a defect in the HNF1A gene (this is 'MODY 3') involves a secretory defect only. The experts say that the only appropriate medical treatments for MODY 3 are insulin or drugs which stimulate the secretion of insulin. MODY 3 can be mild for years, during which time you can postpone insulin. The secretagogues are cheaper and there are no needles. 10% of MODY 3 is diagnosed after age 40.

With MODY 2, the GCK gene mutation, the fasting glucose is prediabetic for life (below 7.0), and the postmeal value is the same as normal people's (under about 7.8). A postmeal value of 13 makes GCK MODY unlikely.

There is slow onset autoimmune diabetes, which is known as LADA. The healthcare system is overburdened. LADA is commonly misdiagnosed as T2, and when metformin doesn't work, the patient might get a referral to a specialist, who might think to test for LADA. You must test for two antibodies, not one: GADA and ZnT8A. But ask for IA-2A and IAA to be included.

Has your fasting plasma insulin been measured? This test is cheap, and it's hard to estimate the value of insulin resistance without fasting insulin. A commonly used index of IR is HOMA-IR, a normalized number: insulin * glucose / 22.5. [22.5 if glucose is in mmol/l and insulin is in uIU, 'u' is the Greek letter mu.] The value of 1.0 is a good, but not excellent value. The HOMA-IR threshold for declaring insulin resistance is, I forget, 1.8 or 2.2. If the HOMA-IR is below the threshold, I would wonder what metformin could do for me.

Other strong indicators there is (pre-)diabetes of the insulin resistance type are chronically rising blood pressure, trigs exceeding about 1.7, being fat, and falling HDL. If there is none of these, or just one, it would be hard to argue there is T2.

I am sceptical of the view that treats metformin as the aspirin of diabetes, good for everybody. In either type of autoimmune diabetes, loss of insulin production is the only cause. Metformin doesn't promote production or secretion or insulin. It tweaks various tissues so that blood glucose will fall. However, if you do not have insulin resistance, then metformin is treating a problem you don't have, the glucose won't fall much, and the doctor will be masking the progression of the beta cell failure. Diet and exercise are healthier stopgaps than metformin.

For most people with dysglycaemia, there are really only two MODY's to consider: HNF1A and HNF4A. The other MODY's are exceedingly rare or the symptoms are severe. The mutation in HNF1A is five times more frequent than mutation in HNF4A. Researchers recommend to test for the latter only after a test for the former comes out negative.
 
I think I should print what you've said and take it to my GP. You're very well-informed - thank you for helping. May I ask are you in the UK? I can't seem to get answers to my questions through the NHS at the moment. I guess as I'm not feeling particularly ill, I can understand that. I have asked about getting my insulin measured but my GP was decidedly unenthusiastic. Said it was costly? Perhaps I should ask for a referral to an endocrinilogist or pay privately?

I have only kept records of blood tests since Dec 2013, most recent was April 2016. but trigs have never been higher than 0.9, HDL going up 1.9 to 2.2, LDL up from 3 to 3.6. But as you said in yr earlier post, I've gone from rarely eating eggs to eating them almost everyday. My blood pressure is low 90/60 most of the time. BMI around the 23/24 mark - have lost a few pounds but nothing major. My waist does measure about 32" which I've seen on some websites is not good. I'm more active than average - cycle to work, play badminton and hockey, walk regularly, do long distance bike rides and hikes - but just thought maybe my pancreas is a bit cranky.

I have had the GCK test and it was negative so MODY 2 out. Presumably I can opt to have the HNF1A test myself? Would I be better off getting my insulin checked first? I am surprised this isn't done as a matter of course rather than only focusing on blood sugar. I'm not keen on taking metformin because I am not convinced that I'm T2 at all. I do get lots of UTIs/Thrush though and many years ago (late 20s) had a few months of amenorrhea so some "experts" say these are also symptoms.

The high levels I mentioned were probably within an hour of eating - I was experimenting trying to see the impact of different foods by testing every 30 mins or so. I'm nearly out of test strips now but it did confirm that carbs have a big impact. Even porridge which I was merrily eating thinking I was being saintly!! I also found that eating carbs(a cake - it was a birthday) and then cycling home (about 7 miles) brought my BS levels back down to normal. If I do lapse and eat certain carbs - it does seem to bring on stomach cramps so I should watch the diet but bit tricky sometimes. I rarely get BS below about 5.5 - usually 6.5 to 9.

If I stop regularly testing, what symptoms should I watch out for that would signify that my diabetes (of whatever type) needs treatment? I'm having HBA1C's about every 6 months.
 
I think I should print what you've said and take it to my GP. You're very well-informed - thank you for helping. May I ask are you in the UK? I can't seem to get answers to my questions through the NHS at the moment.

waist does measure about 32" which I've seen on some websites is not good.

I'm not keen on taking metformin because I am not convinced that I'm T2 at all. I do get lots of UTIs/Thrush though and many years ago (late 20s) had a few months of amenorrhea so some "experts" say these are also symptoms.

I rarely get BS below about 5.5 - usually 6.5 to 9.

Thank you. My signs and symptoms are a little atypical. That has kept me searching for clues in the medical literature and the forums, and I'm happy to share what I find. Um, I'm in southern California.

For Webpages to show a GP, two great Websites for MODY are diapedia.org and diabetesgenes.org. The University of Exeter is one of the two world centers of MODY research. A search on cost of one or another MODY test, yields $550 per test (about £400, huh?, but you'll want to search on uk cost hnf1a) and a wait of 5 weeks.

There is another thread going right now where they report recurrent thrush and other complications despite the BG being only at prediabetic levels. I didn't know the prediabetic levels could produce severe symptoms. If I find any terminology for this, I'll mention it.

Fasting plasma insulin? I have been reluctant to believe I could have T2 because if I am, why are the lab tests and vital signs all negative? But research does say that impaired first phase insulin response is the first step in T2, and the progression to higher prediabetes may take years. This could be a creeping T2 for me, in theory. But for now, the fasting insulin is 5.2 µIU/ml, and fasting BG is 4.9. The HOMA-IR is therefore 5.2*4.9/22.5 = 1.1. (If an insulin test result reported in different units than µIU, the normalizing factor of 22.5 will have to be converted.) Although there is no standardized threshold HOMA-IR value for insulin resistance, and it varies according to race, etc, 1.1 is unquestionably insulin sensitive.

There is also creeping T1 (LADA), and I expect that the panel of 4 antibodies is a lot cheaper than the HNF1A test. I will finally get to discuss theses options with an endocrinologist in the autumn.

With a fasting insulin value, you can look up the HOMA2 graph (Figure 2B here), zoom in with the Windows zoomin command, and read off insulin resistance (as insulin sensitivity) and % beta cell activity. Either quantity can exceed 100% in HOMA. HOMA does not say what one's total beta cell capacity is, rather how much of it was used during the test. HOMA is not perfect, but it has been in use since the 1990's in research and treatment.

Sites like the parent of this forum would probably list clinical warning signs. For myself, I know measurement ranges and whenever there is deterioration, I will be concerned. My FPG has long been 4.7. Now it's 4.9. Is the dam breaking, or will it go down at the next testing? I have been keeping A1c down with exercise alone. I should cut carbs too. I get a retinal exam yearly; negative for 6 years.
 
Hi Sunnyexpat,
I agree with you on this, the HF part of the diet has to be modified for some as i think Diet Doctor acknowledges.

My total went up to 6.8 recently, trigs 1.0; HDL up to 1.6. LCHF since last sept.
BMI<22, Hba1c 42.

I was eating a lot of full fat diary and full fat milk, I shall be reducing these and just taking in olive oil, oily fish, avocado etc and just a little butter.
regards
D.

I personally tend to go with the mainstream view, avoid saturated fats, avoid dairy, and keep my cholesterol in the ranges considered healthy by the majority.
Others do believe raised cholesterol is the way to go thought, and eat saturated fats to raise it.
 
If I stop regularly testing, what symptoms should I watch out for that would signify that my diabetes (of whatever type) needs treatment? I'm having HBA1C's about every 6 months.

Blood pressure rising longterm. (Since this item fluctuates a lot, frequent testing would be needed to prove the pattern. At least twice a month. Home testing would be convenient.)

Here's a tip. In a chapter on T2, among the "evolving changes in glucose patterns" is "rising glucose levels during the day". Early on, fasting glucose is highest before breakfast. As prediabetes progresses, fasting levels before the other meals rise. (chapter 7 of Joslin's Diabetes Deskbook.)

I track A1c. It went up to 6.3 (about 46), which is ominous. I got it down to 37 using exercise and there it stayed for 10 months. Within the last 12 mos, it shot up to 43 in just 3 months, now it's down to 41. These ups and downs make me feel helpless. Well, helpless short of trying very low carb.

Overall, without regular testing of eyes, glucose levels, eGFR -- that's for the kidneys, I fear it would be hard to recognize a decline. But there are people susceptible to acute symptoms, and those are warning signs.
 
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