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LCHF Diet - Wary Of It

A lot of good posts so far. I hate the LCHF acronym which I never use and regularly moan about; if an acronym doesn't have an obvious and reliable interpretation don't use it. The Low Carb bit is obvious and essential; the degree of it will vary. You don't need High Fat but enough protein and fat to keep you feeling full and to provide the nutrients you need. Protein and fat keep you feeling full for longer than carbs.
 

Hmmm.... Well.... the problem is true LCHF really IS high fat, is my understanding. The Volek and Phinney The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living - a bit of a bible of the LCHF biz - specifically talks about what % of one's diet is carbs and protein, and what % is fat in 'a well formulated low carb diet'. (I am at the very mo' lying on my couch re-reading it.) And the % of fat is pretty high! They aren't kidding! (Anything between 70 and 80% of your diet.) And dietdoctor.com also says how important it is to have the high fat bit. And the high fat part is important for being fat-adapted - ie be burning fat and not glucose whilst low-carbing. Too much protein can be turned into blood glucose - so it is particularly important for us not to go too high on the protein.

But, saying that. The above chappies talk a lot about how individual the right threshold of carbs is, and so ditto protein, I would imagine. I think my bod likes a good whack of protein for instance, but then, I do not get some of those wonderful well-into-remission HBA1cs either (in the 30s). (And I'm currently suspicious that the whipped cream I love may be too insulin-raising for me. But these are the kinds of things diabetics doing LCHF have to consider...)

Use the 'healthy fat' thing if 'high fat' isn't for you. Totally understood. But the LCHF really is HF, as in high fat. The idea is for long-term maintenance we need the high fat levels to be truly healthy while low-carbing (remembering to raise one's salt intake, if you were low-salt before). According to the Volek and Phinney, at any rate.
 
worth remembering that the 80% of diet being fat is NOT the volume of food.
People always seems to get confused/fixated by this, and recoil like fainting victorian heroines. But the reality is that they are talking about 80% of the food energy coming from fat.

So you can eat a huge portion of low fat, low calorie, low carb, veg and salad, with say a tablespoon of mayonnaise on it, and you have 80% of the calories of the meal coming from fat. Likewise, you can have a bowl of berries, with a reasonably small portion of cream on it, and 80% of the calories come from the cream.

It is also worth noting that even with something considered low fat, there are often hidden 'invisible' fats.

For instance, someone living on dry oats (no milk used to make porridge, or anything), would be getting 17% of their energy from fat - because even oats have naturally occuring oils in them.
 

I do like the image of fainting Victorian heroines! . When I first started paleo-eating last year, I was pretty well gasping at the amount of coconut oil I was using in cooking veges and meat, and putting in paleo baked goods. And the number of eggs! Wow! Not quite smelling salts material, but close . I had been brought up with the Governmental guidelines that destroyed my health after all! (Margarine not butter. Eggs were bad for you.Three servings of serious carbs a day. I get pretty upset when I think about it. Like now. As they are STILL saying to eat that many carbs thing, even to diabetics, but this we all know...) And the Ministry of Health in NZ is very down on coconut oil, still. But I had read Robb Wolf's book, and was very happy to do the 'just try it, and get your blood lipids done' test. So a fainting Victorian heroine giving it a go! . My blood lipid profile, since having them done as a middle-aged person with metabolic syndrome, had never been better. (I had already had a big weight loss and my triglyceride level had cleared up from an O.T.T. level.) Lowest level of trigs I have ever had, after doing the 'Paleo 30' (30 days of eating no legumes, no dairy, and of course - no grains). And I have a great GP here, and she just said, 'What you are doing - keep doing.' (I would have anyway, but always nice to get support from our health professionals!)

It's good to read your reminder about the fact that's the level of energy derived from the food, not the volume. Many thanks for that brunneria - quite right. It can get confusing, indeed. 80% is a bit mind boggling, but less so when you read how many kcals is in the bowl of macadamias and brazil nuts one is chomping on. Ditto the brie wedges. (I am more LCHF than paleo now. But I have never gone back to imbibing milk. And grains are a rare, if dangerous, for me, treat.)

In some LCHF site - i wish I could remember where! You can work out your energy-from-food need, based on your activity level, bmi etc, your carb intake, and it breaks it down into calorie grams, %, and based on your carb intake, the fat, protein thing. It also has readings if you wish to lose weight, and at different rates. This is mine, for instance, without the weight loss thing - just at weight maintenance.

I was looking at it, bearing in mind Brunneria's comment, and looking puzzled, the way that I do, when thinking about numbers, volume, weight,%, etc, and Mr Svea (my resident beloved science-trained person who actually likes maths) said - to figure out how what you are eating stacks up you just track your food intake for a day, do the grams of fat, protein, carbs thing, and the kcals, add them up, turn them into percentages, and then you have your percentages of carbs, protein and fat. Then you either relax, or change something? Depending on your individual body/life/health/eating goals, for sure. This is what the 'no one size fits all' thing is all about.

 

A bit scary when I read those numbers, I used to like my cheese, and a block of Pilgrims Choice was about the equivalent of my fat and protein for the day now on those ratios.
Fortunately it's not as easy for me to get now.
 
I am eating LC but not HF. I maybe have an avacado regularly with some mayo, I eat an ice lolly or two every night, but other than the fat that might be present in the meat, fish, eggs and low carb veg I eat...that's it. That's what keeps my levels down. I have a "new" kidney, so I do have to watch I don't up my protein (my urea level is currently 7.8) but I also don't want spikes which muck about with my kidney function. My understanding is that so long as I don't eat too much protein, or produce too many ketones, there's no problem with not eating so much fat, and there is no such thing as carbohydrate deficiency. I have no need to lose weight and I am unlikely to put it on. I also feel better than I did pre-diabetic diagnosis. Any comments?
 
So....low carb, low fat, and low protein??? Out off curiosity, how many grams of each per day?
 
NoCrbs4Me said:
So....low carb, low fat, and low protein??? Out off curiosity, how many grams of each per day?
Click to expand...

Varies. At the minute probably 30-50. I intend to up this a little once I have arrived at a balance between taking Gliclazide (which I had stopped before my diet to gauge full effect...the pills had made no difference on their own, but, having restarted, are now helping a bit) in a way which gets rid of the spike I get from a steroid I have to take (and that's working too). But, since I feel healthier off simple carbs, I will only be upping it a wee bit. obviously, I am keen to hear any concerns others may have about this kind of diet, but so far, I am feeling good and my BS level is down now to a pretty normal range, my digestive system is better than ever (always had problems before), I weigh 82 kg at just under 6 ft, and my new kidney function has even improved. I can't really see much reason to change much. what are your thoughts?
 
My thoughts...
50 g of each of fat, protein, and carbs is about 850 calories, which is an unsustainable starvation diet.
A diet devoid of refined carbs, refined seed oils, and factory processed food will likely be healthy, regardless of the macros, as long as you're eating some meat.
 

Thanks for that. Every bit of info is valuable as I establish what's best for me. After a chat with my wife, I realise I am eating a bit more fat than I had thought, as she uses a lot of butter and oil in cooking, and she tells me there's more fat in the meat I eat than I'm probably aware of. My protein is NOT low..I simply mean that I have been told to watch it doesn't get to high (due to my kidney having been transplanted in February). I eat plenty of meat (eg. steak, pork, good burgers, 90% meat sausages, bacon, ham, chicken...) and fish (salmon, haddock, cod, bass, blah blah), I also eat smoked cheese every day for breakfast with some dried bacon strips. I have eggs (fried or in omelette form). Veggies - cauliflower, spinach, broccoli, asparagus, leafy stuff, samphire...Fruit is limited to a few strawberries and and an avocado most days. I can'r resist ice lollies and 90% cocoa chocolate (every day). That's pretty much it. Do you think I need to up this in some way in terms of fat? I am maybe not having enough fibre. Thanks for taking the time to read this. Any advice at all would be greatly appreciated. I am still learning. I am definitely making progress with my levels and don't want to muck about with things unless I am taking risks I don't need to. I'm sure you'll understand that with a transplanted kidney, I don't want diabetic complications due to BS being too high - so currently, the kidney function and a low BS level are my priorities.
 
Hi Paul, Now I understand why you are wanting to knock that spike on the head. Your LC diet is stricter than mine, but seems to be on the right track for you. If you feel the need for more fibre, then upping the vegetables will probably help. I assume you have access to a carb chart for vegetables to choose the most suitable since they do have carb content themselves. The HF part of LCHF is there mainly to provide the energy and to help counteract the weight loss that LC gives - so keep an eye on the weight and up the fat if it is dropping below your target. Very interesting that early in this thread the post that pointed out that 80% fat content is based on energy needs (calories), not by volume or weight !!!!
 
I wouldn't suggest you change anything, except to ditch the ice lollies and oil. I wouldn't worry about fibre if I were you - I sure don't. Just keep avoiding refined carbs and factory processed food.
 
It sounds like you're eating a ton more than 850 calories.

"Plenty of meat"'implies that you're having at least one portion per meal. 3oz/85g of beef is about 200 calories (depending on how lean it is) and that's a tiny portion if you ask me.

One serving of 90% cocoa chocolate is another 200-250 calories
half of an avocado is another 150 calories
A few strawberries is another 50 cals
Every egg you eat is another 75 cals
Every piece of cheese has 50-100 cals


Long story short, these are assuming you're eating very small portions too. If you're not, it's very possible that you're eating well beyond 2000 calories based on how you described your diet and what you're eating.
 
It also seems a lot of protein, particularly meat.
I would discuss this amount with your transplant team
 
Please forgive me y'all if I am repeating stuff, but as I am trying to get my head around this LCHF science - it's good for me to get on here and communicate it - and I hope it makes sense? And I'm not boring you (too much).

But my understanding of the HF part of the LC way of eating is, if you keep protein levels not too high (as a happy carnivore I can't bring myself to say 'low'! But maybe honestly it is low - ish... lol) and keep your carbs as low as suits you personally - and this is what is best practice for diabetics, and anyone wanting to keep blood glucose and insulin levels low for good health - that leaves an energy source deficit, and aren't we lucky bunnies that a major macronutrient and the only one left - fat - doesn't raise our blood sugar! (Yay!) This is the 'sustainability' part of the equation. Volek and Phinney put it like this: "Your energy has to come from somewhere, and for people with carbohydrate intolerance, their best (and safest) long-term energy source is dietary fat. Practically speaking, that means purposefully seeking out enjoyable sources of fat and routinely including them in your diet." (Pearl number three in 'Ten Clinical Pearls' chapter 18, p 239, of The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living.)

This is why, and yes, I find this hard to get my head around too, but considering above - it does make sense. Apparently in times past, we humans were very likely to dive into the fat sources of the dead animals we were consuming, and feed the lean meat to the dogs/dingoes/wolves/hyenas around us. I know it's weird! If we took onboard what our governements told us from the late 1970s. (ie eat lean meat, be afraid, very afraid of dietary fat, and avoid it like the plague.) But yeah - thinking about how intensely delicious crackling is to us, how much various fatty animal body parts are delicacies - it really does make sense we were eating that way periodically at the very least, for most of our time as people on earth.

As diabetics, we probably need to 'eat and meter' regarding dairy fats (I have to experiment with cream, for instance), and different folk have different tolerances to dairy. But this discussion is ALL only if we are using nutrition and ways of eating to treat our diabetes or health generally. I understand that not all diabetics want to do that, or maybe are just thinking about doing it, or experimenting with that themselves. And this is a 'thinking about going LCHF, but I'm nervous' thread, after all. It's very natural, considering the last 40 years, that we are nervous about getting most of our energy needs met from a source we were told will kill us with a heart attack.

Look how well that High Carb Low Fat way of eating went for us!
 

Thanks for that. I am definitely eating more than 850 cals, but I'm not eating large portions or loads of stuff. You seem to really know the calorie count..I guess I should too. I've been so focused on sugar and carb content. I'm open to anything which helps. Mayeb you could look at what I am eating on average and give me your opinion on rough calorie count?? I've never been on any kind of diet before, having always been, if anything underweight until recently - so I have no idea about calories really.
I know I need plenty of them, and some carbs, for energy - but I am not working now and only really do a little exercise (I guess I am pretty lazy physically). I did consider the GI approach too but found that even with those things low on the index, my BS was still going up unless I cut carbs. Now levels are pretty good but there's always space for improvement.

An average day would be :
b/fast = 3 slices smoked cheese (no carbs)/maybe some dried bacon strips and tea
lunch = an avocado with a tiny amount of mayo, maybe 4 or 5 strawberries and coffee
dinner = chicken or beef or fish with cauliflower and broccoli, maybe spinach/asparagus....
sometimes no meat just a salad (a little dressing) the odd fried egg
I usually half half a bottle/less of nice beer with dinner (and an ice lolly...ok..2 ice lollies)
I don't really snack anymore - maybe a few walnuts
I may have a couple of sugar free sweets (c.8 cals each) and 4 squares of 90% cocoa choc at night

That's it. It's not a lot of carbs compared to the rubbish I used to eat. I never eat bread, cereal, chips, sweets, biscuits or cakes (and I really always did eat loads of them!). I do need to watch protein levels, so I don't go overboard on meat. I will probably add in some cereal and a little bread if and when I can handle it without increasing my levels...maybe never.

I was thinking I ate maybe 1000 or so calories, but that's based on stupid instinct! What do you think? Is it too much?
Every bit of advice info from people with various informed views helps me refine my approach, and I really do appreciate the help. sorry to rabbit on and on....thanks for reading. Paul
 
NoCrbs4Me said:
I wouldn't suggest you change anything, except to ditch the ice lollies and oil. I wouldn't worry about fibre if I were you - I sure don't. Just keep avoiding refined carbs and factory processed food.
Click to expand...

Kia ora NoCarbs! But are you eating lots of nuts? Or at least, nuts regularly? There is heaps of fibre in nuts. You're probably getting plenty of fibre that way?
 
SunnyExpat said:
It also seems a lot of protein, particularly meat.
I would discuss this amount with your transplant team
Click to expand...

Thanks. I do meet with renal doctors at a clinic (was three times a day post transplant and now every 6 weeks, but I find that they are no experts when it comes to diabetes (but are excellent in their own area). They give general dietary advice (as you'd expect) - eat a balanced diet, avoid sweet stuff. I talked at length with the last one and he said my low carb diet was fine and it was working well with all my levels, just to ...as you say..watch the amount of protein. I only have one portion of meat or fish or chicken a day (sometimes none at all), but I am trying to be vigilant while avoiding simple carbs. The last thing I need is diabetes (caused by anti-rejection drugs) to cause my kidney to reject! Your advice is appreciated.
 

Yes - the cook knows! You two could track a few days food intake and work out the carbs/protein/fat levels? And put your mind to rest. Because your physical wellbeing, under the circumstances especially, seems to indicate your current intake is working well for you.

Because of your transplant, you could find a LC/LCHF friendly dietician as part of your health care team? I have seen, in real life, three clinical dieticians who are LCHF eaters themselves and practitioners - always a positive sign! (And you can see how surprised I was to see them in real life - it was wonderful!) Because it is particularly important that you keep your protein levels low? (I hope I have understood this correctly.) What you really don't want, as a diabetic, is to get too hungry, on lowering protein sources, and get carbohydrate cravings (which can certainly happen). And that's where upping yummy fat content comes in.

I watched a great youtube thingie/webinar on fibre once and was sold, as I had some bad experiences with ah, digestive processes, er, during fasts, so I have a keen interest in this topic, as I am a no-grain eater. Veges and nuts should do the trick! Very nicely. And when in doubt, I think of Dr Fuhrman's dietary edict (he is a vegetarian which I am most certainly not but I like a lot of what he teaches - just not what he says about meat eating) - eating a large bowl of salad a day pretty well covers you health wise. And if LCHF-ing - with lashings of avocado oil and olive oil as a dressing (with herbs, spices and citron to your taste). Who knows if the large salad a day edict is true - but I practice that with my family, as it is so do-able. (And have a million little bowls for nuts to be placed strategically around eating areas.) Figure it can't be bad, and no fibre/lack of issues in this household.
 
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