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Type 2 LCHF Issues

Height. :)

I don't know. 1 egg (7 g) for breakfast, 2 oz chicken (15 g) for lunch, 3 oz beef (22.5 g) for dinner is 44.5 g protein. Because I also eat nuts once a day and some vegetables are a source of protein too, I'm exceeding the upper limit of my 27 - 45 g protein intake a day. When I first started the low carb diet, I didn't think I was getting enough protein!

Digging through my books, I found this in Chapter 6: Determine Your Personal Protein Threshold in Jimmy Moore's book, Keto Clarity (2014)...

"What can you do to determine your protein threshold? Ketogenic experts have varying opinions about what the ideal protein intake is. Many have guessed that 1 to 1.5 grams per kilogram of body weight is the right amount but this could bring on gluconeogenesis in many people. Dr. Ron Rosedale, and expert in nutritional and metabolic medicine, advises that those who want to be in ketosis consume 1 gram of protein per kilogram of ideal body weight (based on your body mass index; a good calculator is available online at http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/educational/lose_wt/BMI/bmicalc.htm) and then subtract 10 percent. Meanwhile on my Ask the Low-Carb Experts podcasts, renowned protein expert Dr. Donald Layman suggested limiting protein intake to no more than 30 gram per meal and no more than 140 grams per day. To figure out what amount of protein works best for you, though, there is no perfect formula. Just as with carbohydrates, it comes down to a process of trial and error.

I'm a pretty tall guy at six foot three, and I started out at around 120 grams of protein daily to see how I would do. When I wasn't seeing the ketone production and other health effects I was looking for, each week I dropped my daily protein intake by 10 grams, until I discovered that ketones started to increase to beneficial levels at about 80 grams of protein a day. Now that may not seem like very much protein--there are 6 grams of protein in just an egg, for example--but it is what I needed to do in order to produce ketones in my body. Moderating my protein intake turned out to be a critical factor in my success on a ketogenic diet."

What's interesting is that if I use the BMI calculator - (using above link) - my "normal" weight range is 108 to 145 pounds - (the higher weight is my current weight). I'm small boned, so 120 pounds might be a good weight for me. Following Rosedale's formula using ideal weight, not lean body mass weight, results in 49 grams protein a day - (120 lbs. = 54 kilograms; 54 kilograms - 10% = 49 grams protein per day) or 37 grams if using the 0.75 g per kilogram formula.

Volek and Phinney write in their book: "Current guidelines recommend 0.8 grams/day of protein per kilogram of body weight for adults, with more for children, adolescents, and pregnant women." Following that guideline, my protein intake would be 53 grams per day - (145 lbs. = 66 kg; 66 kg x 0.8 g = 53 kg).

Recommendations can be adjusted based on the person's activity level.

So I guess we're on our own to figure this out, though Rosedale's recommendation takes into consideration limiting protein intake to avoid activating mTor which can lead to the development of cancer.

After sampling different ideas about this, I think Jimmy Moore's idea of reducing protein intake daily until "ketones started to increase to beneficial levels" is interesting for those who want to lose weight.
 
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I have to say, after converting your numbers to mg/dL, your numbers are highly similar to my numbers on a good day, and as you may recall, I've been on the low carb diet for 15 months. I could be wrong about this, sincerest apologies if I am, but I rarely see people who have been on medication for years switch to managing with diet and exercise alone. Not only that but you've achieved in a short period of time what took me more than a year to accomplish. Well done. :)[/QUOTE]

In summary, I have been on LCHF since Oct 2014. For the first 3 months I continued to take 80mg Nidem and at the time of my next A1c in Jan 2015 it had dropped to 5.4 from 6.1 at the end of the previous August 4 1/2 month earlier. It was then I decided to try my '1/2 tablet when over 7' routine. I did this to avoid the chance of 'hypos' and in response to having read that long term use of the sulfonyurea class of medication can lead to beta cell burnout. The intervening A1c have been 5.8 5.9 and 6 all of which have been while employing my '1/2 tablet' approach. The only thing that has has been changing is the increasing number of 'over 7' readings in the mornings which I am trying to address at the moment.

As I mentioned, I have been a T2 now for over 22 years and have been on the same style of medication all that time ie. 80 mg Nidem (gliclazide) twice a day. I recently passed out from heat stroke (not enough fluids on a 38C (100F) day at an outside wedding) - in giving the emergency ward Dr my medical history, he seemed genuinely amazed that as a T2 for 22 years I was not on insulin. I put it down to strict BS control, something which I wish my brother and sister would do but they like their pizaa, bread and pasta too much :)

Cheers

32Alpha68
 
Hi

Further to my post #6

Woke up earlier today and arose immediately. 7am BS 4.6
15 minutes later had very low carb b/fast and
unsweetened coffee concurrently (not my usual practice) 7.15 am

Random BS check 1 hour post b/fast 8.15 am BS 5.7

Checked BS two hours after breakfast 9.15 am BS 5.9

Pre lunch check 12.45 pm BS 6.2

Post lunch check @ 2 hours 2.45 pm BS 6.8

Pre evening meal check 6.35 pm BS 5.9

Post evening meal check 8.35 pm BS 6.6

Average for the day 5.9 despite no medication or exercise. Pleased with that result.
There is no apparent 'liver dump' in the morning, which I attribute to having combined my breakfast and coffee. I usually have coffee, then breakfast about 45 minutes later.

Later in the day I found the results of a study that reported that having coffee alone, then later eat carbs can result in raised BS.This appears to be what is happening to me.

Graham explained that coffee alone won't raise BG levels. It only increases BG levels when you eat carbs. And even drinking the coffee at the same time you eat the carbs won't have much effect. But when you drink coffee, wait a bit, and then eat carbs, your BGs will go higher. The researchers had previously shown that this effect persists through a second meal and occurs with low-glycemic-index as well as high-glycemic-index carbohydrates.

Cheers

32Alpha68
 
I think there could be a cortisol issue with some people as well. I do much better eating BF and having coffee later. In the morning all those hormones such as cortisol and adrenaline are waking up and then we dump caffeine on it. Kind of fueling the fire.
 
@32Alpha68 that's such good news. Congrats!

I just posted my morning blood glucose levels. I was excited to read your results this morning, and discussed them with my husband as I made breakfast. Then I felt the cortisol surge, and sure enough, I had a high post breakfast blood glucose reading. Lesson learned: read posts with breakfast, not before. :)

Can you post a link to the work Graham did, or provide the article's or study's title with the author's full name? I'd like to share this with my diabetes group tonight and post it on my website. It's a gem!
 
Winnie,
The way I gauged my protein intake was based on Rosedale saying EXCESS protein turns to bs. You need insulin to utilize the protein and if we are short on insulin it will not go into our cells. So if I tested with various amounts of protein, keeping all else ( carbs and fat) the same until I landed on an amount that didn't raise me. However there are some caveats to this. As a type 2 you don't have much of a first phase insulin response so fat can delay the spike until your second phase comes in and you can minimize a spike. If I don't eat enough fat I will spike much sooner than with fat, hence the avocado again. It slows everything and bridges the gap between bs and insulin.
So I guess I just ate protein until I saw a rise I didn't like and then backed it down to where I stated steady. Who knows if it's enough but it's all I can handle at one sitting. I can handle more as the day goes on with the same amount of insulin. BF is 5 lunch 10 and dinner about 15. I get a little more with avocado and pumpkin seeds. I will continue doing this until something changes. Maybe we're not getting quite enough or maybe a little too much but I think it all balances. I think as long as you feel good, with good energy you are within target. For me I would rather be a little under with the mTOR, BS and kidney stones. I actually do feel better with less but could never live as a vegan.
 
Kristin, I think lowering my protein intake improved my blood glucose levels which is why I'm trying to figure this out. My husband watched Ron Rosedale's lecture this morning - (it's in the Mercola article I posted a link to yesterday). He was impressed and is taking this seriously. After breakfast, he determined his protein intake for the day was already at 25 g, so he reduced his protein intake for lunch. :)

In your comment, "I can handle more as the day goes on with the same amount of insulin. BF is 5 lunch 10 and dinner about 15. I get a little more with avocado and pumpkin seeds. I will continue doing this until something changes.", what does "BF" stand for?

As for cancer risk, I'm choosing to pay attention to mTOR. To that I'll add, I've read enough to come to the conclusion that some people do better with some animal protein even when they have cancer, so as Eric Westman pointed out, "cancer is complicated". That said, animal fat contains toxins so it's important to eat meat from animals that eat a clean, organic even, traditional diet, not a grain based diet.

It's going to take me a while to sort this out for myself Kristin. Part of the problem is my body doesn't respond predictably to carbs from day to day, so I have to make one change at a time and see if there's a change in blood glucose levels over time. :)
 
winnie, BF stands for breakfast I too take mTOR very seriously and found reducing protein only feels better
Rosedale as I have mentioned previously was a key element in reducing my bs by reducing protein.

I keep my carbs and fat the same at each meal. I just change the protein amount. This is how I found out how much protein effected me. I eat the same meals and macros every meal, I just change the type of protein. One thing I find weird is if I eat larger shrimp vs baby shrimp in the same quantity the large shrimp raise me. It is said that the blood sugar / insulin response is as follows from lowest to highest. I eggs, white poultry, dark poultry, red meat and the biggest from fish. I find this true and especially with fatty fish like salmon and tuna. Not enough to tip me over the edge but generally higher. The day matters as well. My new mantra is its just the day

I only eat 100% grass fed beef , Australian lamb, organic poultry and wild Alaskan fish. Most veggies are organic. I find quality matters much more than quantity

Cancer feeds on carbs so I'm good there,lol. I do my best to eat organic from the clean 15 list but slide on things with thick skins such as avocado.
 
Winnie53 said:
@32Alpha68 that's such good news. Congrats!

I just posted my morning blood glucose levels. I was excited to read your results this morning, and discussed them with my husband as I made breakfast. Then I felt the cortisol surge, and sure enough, I had a high post breakfast blood glucose reading. Lesson learned: read posts with breakfast, not before. :)

Can you post a link to the work Graham did, or provide the article's or study's title with the author's full name? I'd like to share this with my diabetes group tonight and post it on my website. It's a gem!
Click to expand...
http://wildlyfluctuating.blogspot.com.au/2011/04/caffeine-and-diabetes.html
 
@32Alpha68 I've been talking with a woman who has type 2 diabetes. She's been on insulin and diabetes medication for a long time, and her blood glucose levels are not well controlled. She's taking steps now to improve her diet and she wants to build regular walking and exercise into her life after she has surgery.

I realize your histories differ, but I wonder if you'd be willing to provide encouragement, information, and guidance based on your experiences these last 18 months, also what led to your decision to begin the low carb diet. If you could do so here or privately, I'd gratefully forward anything you're willing to share. :)
 
My readings for 7 June

Arose at 7.35am BS 5.1 7.35am
Breakfast and coffee concurrently
2 hours post breakfast - had hoped for a little lower BS 7.3 9.48am
Prior to midday meal BS 6.2 12.32pm
2 hours post midday meal BS 6.3 2.58pm
Prior to evening meal BS 5.5 7.30pm
Random reading one hour post meal BS 6.2 8.55pm
2 hours post evening meal BS 5.7 9.55pm

No medication No exercise - average BS or the day = 6.0 I'm happy with that.
 
Hi evelygtc

Typically I eat bacon, steak, mince, eggs, curried sausages, egg plant, olive oil, coconut oil, mushrooms, cheese, cream, butter, avocado, spinach, boc choy, capsicum, zucchini, cauliflower, broccoli, green beans or (most other low GI vegetables). cheese sauce made with cream,butter, creamed cheese and Parmesan cheese. In summer we eat a lot of salads. I eat around 30g of almonds throughout the day. When my wife cooks beef cubes in the slow cooker she uses no thickening agent but uses tinned diced tomatoes, coconut cream and coconut milk. I like to think of new ways to cook the things mentioned - my latest is fried vegetables sprinkled with turmeric powder.

Definitely, positively, no bread, pasta, or other grain based products, potatoes, corn, colourful fruit, sugar or artificial sweetener or basically anything that comes out of a box.

Thanks for your interest.

32Alpha68
 
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