1. Get the Diabetes Forum App for your phone - available on iOS and Android.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Guest, we'd love to know what you think about the forum! Take the Diabetes Forum Survey 2020 »
    Dismiss Notice
  3. Diabetes Forum should not be used in an emergency and does not replace your healthcare professional relationship. Posts can be seen by the public.
    Dismiss Notice
  4. Guest, stay home, stay safe, save the NHS. Stay up to date with information about keeping yourself and people around you safe here and GOV.UK: Coronavirus (COVID-19). Think you have symptoms? NHS 111 service is available here.
    Dismiss Notice
Dismiss Notice
Find support, ask questions and share your experiences. Join the community »

LCHF without Gall Bladder

Discussion in 'Diabetes Discussions' started by Listlad, Jan 22, 2019.

  1. Listlad

    Listlad Prediabetes · BANNED

    Messages:
    3,973
    Likes Received:
    1,907
    Trophy Points:
    198
    Back in 2003 / 2004 I decided to lose some weight by following the Hay method of dieting and exercising. The Hay diet involved alternating between a carbs and vedge / fruit meal followed by a protein and vedge / fruit meal. It worked. However it was at this time that I became quite ill. Initially the symptoms were intermittent and short lived. I sought diagnosis but nobody knew what the problem was and I saw a good number of specialists over about a 1 year period. Eventually I was hospitalised when the symptoms became particularly severe including severe pain just above the abdomen. It turned out it was pancreatitis and this was caused, so I understand, by gall stones in the gall bladder. The gall bladder had to be removed. This stopped the pancreatitis. And all has been well ever since though digesting fattier foods can be problematic.

    I have since heard that the gall bladder problems are common in those that participate in an Atkins type diet program. I don’t know if that is true or not.

    The surgeon who removed my gall bladder rather prophetically told my wife that he anticipated me experiencing diabetes in later life.

    Fast forward to 2014 when high blood sugars were picked up in some blood tests conducted on me at my GP surgery. I have since then had some A1C tests as listed below.

    I am interested in the idea of a LCHF diet but am worried that this will present problems for me including indigestion, when it comes to digesting fattier foods. I tend to stick to lean meats where possible but find that lots of fattier meats, chorizo and mackerel for example, can be difficult to digest without discomfort.

    I also have high blood pressure issues.

    I wonder if there are people here with similar circumstances?

    I have just been reading a thread about Type 3c diabetes but so far Type 2 has been the expectation should my current condition deteriorate.
     
    #1 Listlad, Jan 22, 2019 at 9:27 PM
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2019
  2. HSSS

    HSSS Type 2 · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,429
    Likes Received:
    2,166
    Trophy Points:
    198
    I lost my gallbladder just over a year ago after years of biliary colic attacks severe enough to blue light me to hospital but apparently difficult to diagnose as it went on for 4 years without diagnosis despite being classic in presentation as far as I can tell now, in fact I’m the one who asked if this was it. Until then they blamed reflux / GERD that I don’t have. Anyhow for a few months after the op I had digestive issues and diarrhoea if I ate too much fat in one go and sometimes regardless of what I did. Just as it was settling down (6moths post op) I was diagnosed diabetic. In my denial of diagnosis I managed to convince myself it was related to the op. It probably wasn’t other than it was the latest in a long line of physical and emotional stresses which definitely didn’t help. Possibly the diet that didn’t help diabetes also didn’t help the gallbladder. Low fat eating (high carb) allows the bile to be demanded little and therefore sit sluggishly forming stones in the gallbladder. Eating high fat with stones can often provoke attacks as it demands bile and causes contractions. This is why people think high fat cause gallbladder problems. It does aggravate existing stones but actually it is the low fat that causes it.

    I went keto from day one as I got a raging migraine and didn’t eat for 2 days so figured I’d keep going in the new way of eating. I did struggle a little with the fat initially restarting the diarrhoea issues. However I eased it back and took the addition of fats to the diet more steadily. I slowly was able to increase it and can now eat as many as I wish so long as I don’t go absolutely stupid about it.

    Lack of gallbladder doesn’t stop you digesting fat per se. You no longer have a storage and concentration sac for bile. Instead it drips feeds, hence slow and spread out is better. However as you gradually increase fats your body recognises this and steps up the production of the bile. Also in many people the remaining ducts enlarge somewhat forming a pseudo bladder helping the issue along too.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  3. Listlad

    Listlad Prediabetes · BANNED

    Messages:
    3,973
    Likes Received:
    1,907
    Trophy Points:
    198
    I see. Do you have issues with digestion when eating higher fats in meat and fish? As I say largely things have been good since the op but I do have to be a little bit careful. You too?
     
  4. HSSS

    HSSS Type 2 · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,429
    Likes Received:
    2,166
    Trophy Points:
    198
    I was being careful before starting LCHF. To be honest since I settled into low carb it’s not proved an issue. I haven’t found anything that’s triggered me after the adaptation to more fat. I will confess to not eating the highest fat meats and not a lot of fish. I genuinely prefer chicken Breast to other cuts, and the leaner meats and still trim the larger fat areas off lamb etc. However I add butter or oils whilst cooking now just fine and have discovered cream which I never liked much before. I’ve managed not to cut the fat off bacon now too. I eat a fair bit of cheese . I don’t think I’m as high fat as some but I’m rarely hungry or lacking in energy due to diet and if I am it’s because I haven’t bothered to make a meal (laziness) rather than inability to feel full on my chosen foods.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  5. Listlad

    Listlad Prediabetes · BANNED

    Messages:
    3,973
    Likes Received:
    1,907
    Trophy Points:
    198
    For higher fat I am contemplating ( in the way of dairy produce ) higher fat cheese, full fat milk aswell as cream and yoghurt, all of which I like. Though milk has sugar in, does it not?
     
  6. HSSS

    HSSS Type 2 · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,429
    Likes Received:
    2,166
    Trophy Points:
    198
    It does but full fat is better than skim. Many use cream instead in coffee and sometimes for other uses, possibly watered down to a more milk like consistency. “Nut” milks are another option but check the carbs as they vary. Yoghurt best bet is a full fat Greek. Fage is my go to make as the lowest carb highest fat I can find. I add berries or flaxseed or a seed based granola to it for fibre without too many carbs. Don’t forget butters and oils (not seed ones, I usually use olive or avocado). Nuts are another source but again be carb aware depending of which you choose.

    And don’t forget bacon:)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. Listlad

    Listlad Prediabetes · BANNED

    Messages:
    3,973
    Likes Received:
    1,907
    Trophy Points:
    198
    Yes, I like bacon but I also have to keep salt levels down for hypertension mitigation.
     
  8. DCUKMod

    DCUKMod I reversed my Type 2 · Master
    Staff Member Administrator

    Messages:
    13,233
    Likes Received:
    7,562
    Trophy Points:
    298
    Listlad - I still have my gallbladder and have never experienced gallbladder symptoms or pancreatitis, but if I go bonkers on fat, I do suffer from steatorrhoea (I'll not describe it too graphically). I don't have any dreadful discomfort at those time, but it isn't too pleasant.

    On the forum, we have several folks, like, @HSSS , without gallbladder who have done well low carbing with good amounts of decent fats, but we have some who do a bit less well. I reckon, like most things, we have individual thrersholds for fat. I can't define mine, but I know when I breach it.

    My suggestion to you would be, if you intend to up your fats, to do it steadily, rather then flick a switch. Our bodies like to run on routine, so changing that routine drastically can upset anyone's system. Just add a bit more for a period of time (my test period was always about 7 days), beforre upping agin, and if you expeience discomfort, other symptoms, trim back.

    I'm not telling you to do this, or even strongly advising it except for the taking it steady part. If your metabolism has been known to have the odd wobble, just treat it gently, and keep asking questions.

    Good luck with it all.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  9. Listlad

    Listlad Prediabetes · BANNED

    Messages:
    3,973
    Likes Received:
    1,907
    Trophy Points:
    198
    I take your point. Thanks for the advice. I maybe shocked my system back in 2003/4 by not acclimatising in such a way.
     
  10. DCUKMod

    DCUKMod I reversed my Type 2 · Master
    Staff Member Administrator

    Messages:
    13,233
    Likes Received:
    7,562
    Trophy Points:
    298
    Hopefully, the slow approach will work, but it may not. We have to be a bit pragmatic with these personal trials.

    When I got skinny, after diagnosis and need not to get any skinnier, that's when I started upping my fats, I did it in a structured way, by being quite controlled - adding things like "doses" of a BabyBel cheese, or a bacg of (albeit salted) nuts around my staple diet.

    If you could do with dropping a few pounds, don't be frantic initially about upping your fats, unless you find yourself hungry.

    As I say, do take it steady. If you start getting symptoms trim back again, either a bit or totally, but that can only be your own judgement.

    Food for thought (see what I did there?).
     
    • Like Like x 2
  11. Tophat1900

    Tophat1900 Type 3c · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,126
    Likes Received:
    1,202
    Trophy Points:
    178
    Had my gall bladder removed a few years ago. Due to biliary obstruction, stones in the ducts blocking the flow. I take Ursofalk which is meant to decrease inflammation. I have cystic fibrosis (CF), I am post double lung transplant of 21 years ago and biliary obstruction is some what common in people with CF. I also take creon, which is a digestive enzyme to help digest and absorb food. Not uncommon for people with type 3c take creon.

    Since having the gall bladder removed, I have been able to eat fats without problems. In fact, better then I had been able to before and this was probably due issues with the gall bladder not functioning properly. I didn't follow any low fat diet during the time period of gall bladder issues, but I also didn't experience bad pain that is common with it. So who knows why that is, maybe diet helped with that and maybe it was just luck or some other reason, but we don't all react the same way to the same problem.

    In regards to indigestion. I use apple cider vinegar diluted in water before meals, even just a few mouthfuls will do the trick for me. I used to suffer from frequent severe heart burn, which is agony when it hits, but I don't get it at all anymore since I started drinking apple cider vinegar about 8 years ago. Maybe worth a shot? Just remember to dilute it really what you can stand, it's very potent and last thing you want is for that to go down the wrong way. Most people try a tablespoon of it per cup full of water.

    Like anything, when you are making a major change, do it gradually. Hope things improve for you.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. Listlad

    Listlad Prediabetes · BANNED

    Messages:
    3,973
    Likes Received:
    1,907
    Trophy Points:
    198
    I tried some apple cider vinegar about a year ago. It was foul stuff so didn’t take any more. :D Maybe I hadn’t diluted it enough.

    When it comes to indigestion, what exactly does it do? Do we know?
     
  13. Tophat1900

    Tophat1900 Type 3c · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,126
    Likes Received:
    1,202
    Trophy Points:
    178
    Yeah, you really have to dilute it.... it's horrendous stuff if it's too strong.

    What causes your indigestion? Don't know, for some it's related to a gall bladder problem and there are other reasons, ulcers or some type of digestive issue etc.
     
  14. sarah_chadwick

    sarah_chadwick Type 2 · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    125
    Likes Received:
    102
    Trophy Points:
    83
    I have gallstones and am waiting for my gallbladder to be removed, my consultant said it was because I followed a LCHF diet, but being Tye 2 diabetic, this helped to reduce my blood sugar levels down enough to come off medication, I struggled with this as I felt like I couldn't do right for doing wrong. I still have flare ups if I 'over indulge' with the fatty foods (mainly cheeses), and at odd times for no reason at all, I have now got things under control (slightly) and eat mainly poultry, a little dairy but lots of veggies, hope you manage to get some helpful advice, there is lots on this site.
     
  15. HSSS

    HSSS Type 2 · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,429
    Likes Received:
    2,166
    Trophy Points:
    198
    When I was being told my problem was GERD I did a lot of research into helping digestion. Apple cider vinegar works by adding acid to your stomach to help breakdown food. Indigestion can often be caused by not enough acid. So taking acid lowering meds (eg Omeprazole, nexium etc) can perversely help the immediate symptoms but actually make the problem worse.

    Try not to drink too much water immediately before eating as that will dilute your acid. Eating protein first means the part of the meal that needs the most acid gets the best of it too. You can also by digestive enzymes in places such as Holland and Barrett that do help if nothing else does.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. Listlad

    Listlad Prediabetes · BANNED

    Messages:
    3,973
    Likes Received:
    1,907
    Trophy Points:
    198
    What causes my indigetion? I don’t truly know for sure but based on advice from the people who carried out the surgery and the corresponding follow up it is simply a case of not being able to cope with larger amounts of oily or fatty foods. This appears to be the case and for most of the time I do not have any problems, though I do err on the side of a lower fat diet. So when I do eat the fattiest of foods in sufficient quantities it seems to cause indigestion.
     
  17. Listlad

    Listlad Prediabetes · BANNED

    Messages:
    3,973
    Likes Received:
    1,907
    Trophy Points:
    198
    Okay. I see parallels there with my own situation though at the time of the op in my case I wasn’t either diabetic or pre diabetic.
     
  18. Pinkorchid

    Pinkorchid Type 2 · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,912
    Likes Received:
    1,946
    Trophy Points:
    198
    On this forum members can only tell you how they manage their conditions but as we are all different food affect us all differently. Just takes things slowly and experiment until you find the level of fats that suits you . Some can eat high fat others find moderate to lower is better for them there are no set rules about it
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  19. HSSS

    HSSS Type 2 · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,429
    Likes Received:
    2,166
    Trophy Points:
    198
    Again in my earlier research what I could find seemed to suggest indigestion and gallbladder issues are not related, although may have similar triggers and can even feel similar in some cases (though in my personal experience the acute gallbladder attacks were as bad or even worse than childbirth sometimes)

    Gallbladder problems, or lack of one, affects digestion below the stomach ie from the point bile is or should be added. The pain may well radiate upwards but is being caused lower. Indigestion is stomach contents not passing through and down or rising upwards in the oesophagus.

    Several drs blamed high fat for causing gallstones. I stick by my earlier point it aggravates symptoms not causes it.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  20. Listlad

    Listlad Prediabetes · BANNED

    Messages:
    3,973
    Likes Received:
    1,907
    Trophy Points:
    198
    Agreed. The attacks were very painful especially later on. Fortunately I do not get them any more since the op.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  • Meet the Community

    Find support, connect with others, ask questions and share your experiences with people with diabetes, their carers and family.

    Did you know: 7 out of 10 people improve their understanding of diabetes within 6 months of being a Diabetes Forum member. Get the Diabetes Forum App and stay connected on iOS and Android

    Grab the app!
  • Tweet with us

  • Like us on Facebook