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Letter in Telegraph today

noblehead said:
I'm taking it you didn't agree with episode 2 of 'The men who made us Fat'
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It's still waiting along with thousands of hours of detective shows my wife records to be watched.

I understand it's the super-size one though? So, the point is why do people eat those huge portions - are they greedy or is it because their hormonal response to their food is off; i.e. lots and lots of carbs and calories inhibiting your serum leptin meaning that you are hungry.

I'm not doubting portions are huge, but just why they are huge? Because we are greedy; but why? Wilful gorging or hormone imbalance?

Best

Dillinger
 
Patch said:
Sloth and greed as an explanation for obesity is about as convincing as explaining that people are short because they are mean.
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Oh, how I laughed!
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Having said that; I do have a short friend and he is very mean... :shock:
 

Personally I am going for Wilful gorging, ( even though its a horrible term) it could be' sod the consequences of our actions, someone or someplace will be there to pick up the pieces' I'm sure hormone imbalance has been around in the past, but on the scale it appears to be now days,no, I really dont think so, it saddens me so much, to see what people are doing to their health
 

Yes but I would respectfully suggest that is missing the point. What you say is true but what it does not address is why people do this. I do not believe the vast majority of those people do it because they are slothful and greedy but do it because the types of foods they are consuming are encouraging them to eat more because they do not tell their appetites to switch off and in some cases make the people want to consume more and more.

Saying or implying those people are slothful and greedy is stereotyping millions of people in this country as wicked for no reason and is simply outrageous. Why on earth in the last 30 years or so would a large proportion of the human race suddenly all develop "sloth and greed"? In simple evolutionary terms this makes no sense what so ever. It is far more likely the cause is environmental. The real cause is the non regulation of the food and drinks industry not the average everyday person has somehow "evolved" to be slothful and greedy.
 

So what about those people who's bodies no longer respond to leptin? Are they just willful gorgers too? There is no one size fits all for people being overweight, and to try to pigeonhole all overweight or obese people is wrong. I was overweight before diabetes due to steroids and associated problems, would you like to suggest I just filled my face with ****?
 

Don't go with this. I say this by the way as someone who's never been overweight myself. But I don't believe anyone WANTS to be fat, so it's not wilful. Yes, the weight comes from eating too much (carbs) and not exercising won't help, although it's been shown that exercise contributes very little to calorie burning.
Nor do i think people say "others will deal with it", because they don't want to have things that need to be dealt with. It's like smokers who tell themselves "it won't happen to me"
Advertising had a massive influence on smoking. That's why it was considered "cool". That's why advertising is banned now.
But what about the advertising for cakes, sweets, chocolate, bread .... I don't need to continue with the list of starchy carbs. Telling the food industry "fat is bad" was a great opportunity to let them market "low fat" "healthy" foods with lots of addictive sugars to make people want to buy more. Don't see "buy one get one free" on packets of bensons the way you do with chocolate bars.
So, yes, people eat more and get bigger. But not because they want to get fat, or because they wilfully disregard health risks (even though they know they're there)
Funny how anorexics don't get the same type of bad press. Undereating is an illness. Overeating is just greed.
 

In 2010 just over a quarter of adults (26 per cent of both men and women aged 16 or over) in England were classified as obese (BMI 30kg/m2 or over). That is probably around 12 million people. Did the vast majority of those people opt for "Wilful gorging" in the terms you present it? Perhaps you could supply some evidence to the effect that a quarter of the population has turned into wicked people who are saying "sod the consequences of our actions, someone or someplace will be there to pick up the pieces" as you suggest. Why would a quarter of the population suddenly develop the trait of "Wilful gorging" in the last 30 years? It makes no sense at all.

The problem is Robinreadbreast to me "Wilful gorging" is a very loaded term the equivalent of racism so where people blame something on a minority just because they are different. There is undoubtedly a obesity crisis going on in this country and elsewhere but to blame it on a quarter of the population themselves makes no sense to me.
 

Steady! 'wilful gorging' was my phrase - used to highlight the point I was trying to make. Robinreadbreast was just quoting me and I'm sure wouldn't have chosen those words herself.

But Robinreadbreast - the thing is that with protein or with fat it's pretty difficult to gorge yourself; see how much butter you can eat on its own, or how much steak you can eat without anything else. Pretty quickly your body says 'STOP', the issue then becomes what is allowing us/tricking us into eating all that junk food?

The argument is that it is the carbs (in particular fructose) that does that; so that you are constantly hungry (which is after all one of the prime motivators that our brains have - it's primal and it's not messing about).

The only way a moral issue would rise here is where people who are genuinely full say I think I'll have another course; Mr Creosote style (Meaning Of Life), and Monty Python films aside I really don't think that happens very much. Hunger is not a sin; why are we hungry is the key issue.

Best

Dillinger
 

actually I do... my daughter... would need a tactical nuclear device to get her off her futon...

then again, she has the appetite of a sparrow...
 

Yes I realise that but in your post you did present a choice

Dillinger said:
Wilful gorging or hormone imbalance?
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Every opportunity was given to pick either choice or to disagree with both that you presented.

The response was


If Robinredbreast wants to clarify or change her stance then that's fine but painting a quarter of the country's population in those terms is very wrong in my opinion.

I can only echo your comments on fat and protein. You are stating what I consider to be the blindingly obvious true underlying cause which is what needs to be addressed. Stereotyping 12 million odd people as essentially wicked people does no one any favours and will only perpetuate the current state of affairs.
 
WHHHOOOOAAAAAA I didn't start off the 'wilful gorging' Di I?

I have commented on what I actually see evry day.

I just gave an opinion on what I do see at work, in the street at supermarkets etc people do overeat and they know that if they keep doing it they will become overweight or obese. So why, why do they do it :?: Is it a sad aprt of the 21st century, everthings on offer so just take take, take and never think about the consequences. I have never been overweight, am I lucky maybe, is it in the genes maybe, but I do try to keep fit and active, which I know not everybody can do because of medical conditions, or is it because I am constantly hungry, sometimes even starving like now, even though I have eaten. I have had this for all my adult life, for years and years I thought everyone was like this,( at least 13 years before I became type 1, so pre diabetes) It never goes away, its there night and day, months and years. I put up with it, always have done. Its horrible constanly beong hungry, but with or without Diabetes, and if I ate and ate and ate, especially carbs I would be the size of a house. So its down to control, wilpower and sheer bloody determination, not to do that, just putting my day to day life to you to let you know. Easy, oh no, not easy at all

Too many carbs, not enough exercise = an epidemic of obestity.

Another thing, get rid of these giant size conveinence foods, there a killer :x

I f anyone would like to know about the foods that I have actually seen being eaten by overweight people, then I will be willing to do that.
 
stepping a cautious toe n here with this thought:

What about IF lots of people are actually malnourished here? all the processing of food and artificial fats, sugars etc MAY be making us deprived of nutrients.

Now, we know that some animals will continually graze in their search for nutrients. Regardless of the amount they eat, until that nutritional requirement is fill, they remain hungry

PERHAPS this is another reason why people continue to eat - because they may have consumed the right amount of calories, but their nutritional requirements are not being fulfilled?

And that isnt greed, its starvation caused by "food" which does not nourish. And we wouldnt consider a starving person who then eats and eats to be a bad person, would we? we would understand the mechanism of malnourishment they are trying to combat.

The problem is, we are taught that these low-fat, over sugared foods are healthy and nourishing, so we add the stress of our bodies knowing we are starving of nourishment coming into conflict with what we are being told, to the problem.
 
Robinredbreast said:
So why, why do they do it :?: Is it a sad aprt of the 21st century, everthings on offer so just take take, take and never think about the consequences.
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Where is your evidence that their is a link between overeating and "everthings on offer so just take take, take and never think about the consequences." You are still stereotyping obese people as in some way bad or wicked.That is my main objection to how you present your opinion. If you just left it at "there is a serious obesity problem in the country" without making unsubstantiated claims that it's somehow the peoples fault themselves there would be no issue between us.


Your condition sounds a nightmare and you have my sympathy but why assume just because you have the will power that others have or even should be expected to behave in the same way and that if they don't they are somehow bad people. All well controlled diabetics have to develop control over their eating to survive but we are a small subset of the population.

Alternatively why should the population as a whole even have to concern itself about getting an understanding that filling themselves full of sugar and processed carbohydrate is bad? It should be the other way round. Society should ensure that the average man (or women) in the street isn't put in unnecessary danger. We do that with the water supply, society insists that water is safe and that is simply accepted. If a water company suddenly stopped chlorinating its water so it got full of bugs would you be blaming the people who drank it and got ill or the water company?

Robinredbreast said:
Too many carbs, not enough exercise = an epidemic of obestity.
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Too many processed carbs yes but too little exercise? That study of children showed they did no less exercise than children 30 years ago yet modern children are more obese. Exercise has little to do with it. I agree exercise of any kind is a good thing but it's largely irrelevant to the underlying causes of obesity.
 
Perhaps we need proper definitions of what a food is. Just like we have a definition of what is a medicine, or what is clean water?

then something which is detrimental to our health, or depletes our minerals and vitamins when we consume it, would no longer be called food

and a proper legally enforceable definition of what is healthy. and if it contravenes that definition, it cannot be labelled as healthy even by implication.
 

Wow. What a brilliant insight. That's exactly what Paul Jaminet proposes in his Perfect Health Diet book.

Five reasons why modern people are malnourished (compared to our Paleolithic ancestors)
  1. Modern life is sedentary, we don't expend as much energy so we don't eat as much food, therefore our nutrient intake is decreased
  2. Modern foods are nutrient poor compared with Paleolithic foods (sugar, wheat, rice and corn have very few nutrients per calorie)
  3. Agricultural food production and water treatment diminish the mineral content of our food and drink
  4. Modern cooking methods leave too many nutrients behind (you need to eat all the fat and all the broth from your cooking)
  5. Modern foods contain anti-nutirents that lock up nutrients and toxins and impair intenstinal absorbtion of nutrients (Mmmmm Healthy Wholegrains)

He has some data that suggests that the effects of malnutrition not only damages one owns health, but is magnified in your offspring (so that after 3 or 4 generations some pretty horrible things happen). Google "Pottenger's cats". Malnourished mother's produce children who are prone to obesity and a range of other metabolic weaknesses.
 
Robinredbreast said:
I f anyone would like to know about the foods that I have actually seen being eaten by overweight people, then I will be willing to do that.
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Confirmation bias.

Have you never seen a slim person eating the same food?
 

Here is the said letter:-

SIR – Following on from Terry Ramsey’s review of the BBC documentary The Men Who Made Us Fat (Television & Radio, June 15), although Jacques Peretti, the maker of the documentary, missed out some scientific data, he should be applauded for asking important questions.

As carbohydrate consumption has ballooned, so has obesity. My colleagues and I have been fighting the industry on this issue for nearly 30 years and only now are people finally taking notice.

Fat is not and has never been the real enemy, as shown by the latest World Health Organisation study on the consumption of fats and carbohydrates. Why are the media and the Government so slow to recognise the evidence showing that carbohydrate consumption is linked to obesity?

Hannah Sutter

Diabetes has not been mentioned in the above letter, I have not said it is about diabetes/diabetics :eh: It's about the growing obesity problem and Carbohydrate Consumption has ballooned :shock: Has anybody on the forum written a letter to the government to address this awful problem :?: and if someone has, could you say what their answer was please, I for one,and I'm sure like everybody else, would like to know.

I am not an anaylist or anybody scientific, I have said what I see and what I hear from people passing by, or outside a shop, in an ordinary street, in an ordinary town, how it makes me feel, how I am so saddened and shocked by what is going on, that's all. If people dont like what they are reading, they are entitled to post a reply. So it seems I will have to agree to disagree. :eh:
 
Brilliant articles Catherine I especially liked the following in the first article


Exactly states what's the real issue is. Nothing to do with blaming the consumer all to do with blaming the real culprits.
 

I wish I had the appetite of a sparrow and felt full up after a few bites, bliss I would think :wink:

then again, she has the appetite of a sparrow...[/quote]
 
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