Hello, whilst I've been reading through the forum I've come across the term "liver dump". I was wondering if someone could explain to me what this is?
Liver dump.
- Thread starter CherryKerry
- Start Date
CK, as far as I know it is a process where the body prepares itself for waking up by getting the liver to 'dump' glucose in to the blood stream to help with the days new activity.
I'm sure that more help with your request will arrive soon !
Welcome here, and a happy new year !
Superchip
I'm sure that more help with your request will arrive soon !
Welcome here, and a happy new year !
Superchip
Also as I understand it a liver dump is also when your liver releases glucose in response to a hypo which is why you get high readings post hypo. Your liver then pulls the glucose back upto 12--24hrs after the hypo hich is why your not suposed to correction dose afterwards for at least 12hrs(so my dsn keeps telling me 
)
)Hi
I've never experienced the legendary "liver dump" in 24 yrs as a type-1 though I've read about it.
If my BG is too high in the morning it's because I've eaten too much slow-acting carbs the night before. Kidney beans are the worst, and for me can mean my BG can continually rise overnight, resulting in an easily-explainable high in the morning. Over-treating hypos, which is easy to do, as we all know also results in a high blood sugar which can stay raised for a long period of time. If that happens I always correct by a couple of units, stopped listening to doc's advise 21 yrs ago when my GP asked if I checked my own BG at home.LOL
Jus
I've never experienced the legendary "liver dump" in 24 yrs as a type-1 though I've read about it.
If my BG is too high in the morning it's because I've eaten too much slow-acting carbs the night before. Kidney beans are the worst, and for me can mean my BG can continually rise overnight, resulting in an easily-explainable high in the morning. Over-treating hypos, which is easy to do, as we all know also results in a high blood sugar which can stay raised for a long period of time. If that happens I always correct by a couple of units, stopped listening to doc's advise 21 yrs ago when my GP asked if I checked my own BG at home.LOL
Jus
Me too, I've had plenty of them and to be honest over the years when I used to suffer with night time Hypo's I was VERY thankful for my busy little Liver, as it got me out of the Schtuck a few times.
I do actually evoke liver dumps at certain times in the month for long training sessions now when I am very insulin sensitive in my Cycle. I will reduce my Bolus by half and set off straight away on a very tough route with a VERY steep hill, so I am working for ten minutes at my maximum heart rate. This will always cause my Liver to dump Glucose and fetch me just up into double figures. I will then stop and test, take a couple of units and find I can easily complete 20+ miles without having to adjust, or even test now, or have any Glucose ect. Liver Dumps hang around much more than Glucose taken orally, which really works for me at certain times.
If I did not do this at certain times in my Cycle to deal with the fluctuating Hormones levels, which in turn effect my Insulin sensitivity, then I would have to eat the Glucose which for me is not anywhere near as effective as a mild Liver dump. And I like to keep things as natural as possible. This is only at certain times of the month for me. But it works better than anything on very long runs...and obviously for me and my situation,it is also well tested. I'm not advocating it as part of anyones regime. You need to know all your Hormone fluctuations through proper testing.
Andy, that is interesting you mention what your DSN said ,as mine said to correct for them and that a Liver dump takes an extra correction dose, which I did find I had to use extra insulin if I had one and was not "utilising" it in with my training/runs. I can't say I hypo'ed later at all if I ever did correct for them . When I used to get them in the night my BG would be up in the late 20's and so I had to correct for it. Thank goodness those uncontrolled Liver dump days are gone for me now, I hated them.
How often do you get them Andy? Is it DP ? or because you have fasted? or gone low?
I do actually evoke liver dumps at certain times in the month for long training sessions now when I am very insulin sensitive in my Cycle. I will reduce my Bolus by half and set off straight away on a very tough route with a VERY steep hill, so I am working for ten minutes at my maximum heart rate. This will always cause my Liver to dump Glucose and fetch me just up into double figures. I will then stop and test, take a couple of units and find I can easily complete 20+ miles without having to adjust, or even test now, or have any Glucose ect. Liver Dumps hang around much more than Glucose taken orally, which really works for me at certain times.
If I did not do this at certain times in my Cycle to deal with the fluctuating Hormones levels, which in turn effect my Insulin sensitivity, then I would have to eat the Glucose which for me is not anywhere near as effective as a mild Liver dump. And I like to keep things as natural as possible. This is only at certain times of the month for me. But it works better than anything on very long runs...and obviously for me and my situation,it is also well tested. I'm not advocating it as part of anyones regime. You need to know all your Hormone fluctuations through proper testing.
Andy, that is interesting you mention what your DSN said ,as mine said to correct for them and that a Liver dump takes an extra correction dose, which I did find I had to use extra insulin if I had one and was not "utilising" it in with my training/runs. I can't say I hypo'ed later at all if I ever did correct for them . When I used to get them in the night my BG would be up in the late 20's and so I had to correct for it. Thank goodness those uncontrolled Liver dump days are gone for me now, I hated them.
How often do you get them Andy? Is it DP ? or because you have fasted? or gone low?
Think its because I was getting hypos and then sugar went very high and after I correction dosed it then went way to low. Although I am insulin sensitive. Yup they are not very pleasant . Not getting as many hypos now and I correct about 12hrs later. Going onto pump this year (only took 4 years of trying everything else and finally finding a dsn that enjoyed her job 8)
. Not getting as many hypos now and I correct about 12hrs later. Going onto pump this year (only took 4 years of trying everything else and finally finding a dsn that enjoyed her job 8)Yes, sounds familiar! Glad you have found a good DSN Andy, it makes all the difference even if it's to get the appropriate tests to figure things out for yourself, that helps.
Good luck with the Pump, I hope this helps you.
Good luck with the Pump, I hope this helps you.
Hi Andywright,
You're so right, the differences between type-1s experiences vary so much, it's a shame docs don't often treat us all as individuals. I have problems about 3-4 days before my menstrual period Fallenstar, I get really insulin sensitive and then the opposite for a couple of days before. It's a funny old thing how hormones affect us, and for me whenever I was pregnant my diabetes was so smooth and easy to manage, though I know from this forum it's not the same for everyone.
The function of the liver and it's ability to save us from severe hypos, as you mentioned Fallenstar, makes me wonder why so many type-1s are put on metformin when they encounter problems with control. Metformin works by suppressing glucose production by the liver , surely for type-1s or type-2s on insulin this could potentially be dangerous? It's always puzzled me.
Jus
You're so right, the differences between type-1s experiences vary so much, it's a shame docs don't often treat us all as individuals. I have problems about 3-4 days before my menstrual period Fallenstar, I get really insulin sensitive and then the opposite for a couple of days before. It's a funny old thing how hormones affect us, and for me whenever I was pregnant my diabetes was so smooth and easy to manage, though I know from this forum it's not the same for everyone.
The function of the liver and it's ability to save us from severe hypos, as you mentioned Fallenstar, makes me wonder why so many type-1s are put on metformin when they encounter problems with control. Metformin works by suppressing glucose production by the liver , surely for type-1s or type-2s on insulin this could potentially be dangerous? It's always puzzled me.
Jus
Hi Jus
It's funny you should mention the pregnancies, I had forgotten but I was on AMAZING amounts of Insulin during my first, towards the end of the Third Trimester I was injecting 70 + units of Bolus per meal, and Basal was dialed right up to the top of the pen split dose :crazy: I had crazy insulin Resistance, but I had very high Androgens with my first, this is now linked to Pre-Eclampsia which I had, and which Type 1 Ladies are more prone to. My second I hardly adjusted my levels at all, maybe 20 units of Bolus across the course of a day and 30 units of Basal. It stayed stable throughout....Hormones ey! :roll:
I have managed to get my HBa1C down from 8.6% at it's worse to, my last one just came in at 5.6 % . This was by doing extensive testing of Hormones through my Cycle and understanding how each separate hormone effects my insulin sensitivity and adjusting doses accordingly to which one is in the main state of play. Also adjusting other Hormones, Bio-identically, down the downward stream Metabolite.
It has revolutionised my control, also Low Carb which is a great help for me. And this is having hardly any Hypo's. Some Ladies don't suffer extreme Hormone fluctuations throughout their Cycle ,some do.And boy did I :lol:
Mine were quiet extreme and it has taken a good year of tests of all my Steroid and Sex hormone panel to get to the bottom of things but it has made all the difference to my control . Thing is Hormones are never static, neither is Diabetes but for now I'm enjoying the the good HbA1c's
Hey, and the biggest difference for me where the night time Hypo's was concerned was getting off that Nightmare Lantus, I'm sure you'll understand that one ; )
It's funny you should mention the pregnancies, I had forgotten but I was on AMAZING amounts of Insulin during my first, towards the end of the Third Trimester I was injecting 70 + units of Bolus per meal, and Basal was dialed right up to the top of the pen split dose :crazy: I had crazy insulin Resistance, but I had very high Androgens with my first, this is now linked to Pre-Eclampsia which I had, and which Type 1 Ladies are more prone to. My second I hardly adjusted my levels at all, maybe 20 units of Bolus across the course of a day and 30 units of Basal. It stayed stable throughout....Hormones ey! :roll:
I have managed to get my HBa1C down from 8.6% at it's worse to, my last one just came in at 5.6 % . This was by doing extensive testing of Hormones through my Cycle and understanding how each separate hormone effects my insulin sensitivity and adjusting doses accordingly to which one is in the main state of play. Also adjusting other Hormones, Bio-identically, down the downward stream Metabolite.
It has revolutionised my control, also Low Carb which is a great help for me. And this is having hardly any Hypo's. Some Ladies don't suffer extreme Hormone fluctuations throughout their Cycle ,some do.And boy did I :lol:
Mine were quiet extreme and it has taken a good year of tests of all my Steroid and Sex hormone panel to get to the bottom of things but it has made all the difference to my control . Thing is Hormones are never static, neither is Diabetes but for now I'm enjoying the the good HbA1c's
Hey, and the biggest difference for me where the night time Hypo's was concerned was getting off that Nightmare Lantus, I'm sure you'll understand that one ; )
It's New Year, a joyous time, not one to be mentioning Lantus LOL
You must be so pleased to have sorted things out, well done! I'm going to go back to low-carbing very soon, it's the only common sense way to control diabetes and I certainly felt better and lost weight when I did it last year.
Did you have to go private to get your hormones tested? I've been under 2 gynae's in recent years about the hormonal problems I suffer, and had abolutely no help whatsoever, aside from discovering I'm not peri-menopausal or menopausal. I suffer premenstrual nausea, I had it as a teenager too, and was on anti-sickness tabs permantently till I got pregant with my first son. I now suffer post-menstrual depression, alongside severe ovulation pain and premenstrual pain & acne for 10 days before I'm due. Who'd be a woman I'd love to find out what's going on, as I now only have about 7 days a month when I'm not ruled by my hormones
Sorry I know it's a bit off-topic, but I'd appreciate your advice
Jus
You must be so pleased to have sorted things out, well done! I'm going to go back to low-carbing very soon, it's the only common sense way to control diabetes and I certainly felt better and lost weight when I did it last year.
Did you have to go private to get your hormones tested? I've been under 2 gynae's in recent years about the hormonal problems I suffer, and had abolutely no help whatsoever, aside from discovering I'm not peri-menopausal or menopausal. I suffer premenstrual nausea, I had it as a teenager too, and was on anti-sickness tabs permantently till I got pregant with my first son. I now suffer post-menstrual depression, alongside severe ovulation pain and premenstrual pain & acne for 10 days before I'm due. Who'd be a woman
I'd love to find out what's going on, as I now only have about 7 days a month when I'm not ruled by my hormones Sorry I know it's a bit off-topic, but I'd appreciate your advice
Jus
Hey Jus
I hear ya Lady!!! The visit to the Endo/Gyne :roll: If it ain't the old PCOS then they don't wanna know!! My advice to you is whatever they do test wise for you GET THE RESULTS, the whole lot, a print out...they won't like it some of them and a couple of times I had to go back to my GP(who is very good) to get hospital print outs, but I got em. I researched them and learnt about my situation, I also did what I could afford privately :roll: Not easy!
KNOW your ranges Jus, I had high Testosterone all the way through my Cycle, no fluctuations and it should, obviously they thought Ovarian, my ovaries are as clean as a whistle, so no PCOS as soon as they found that out, see ya! I had no symptoms of PCOS, no virilisation, nothing!
Testosterone causes insulin resistance in women, the oposite of men, with me it is Adrenal, again i wanted to know why I had this, they didn't give a monkeys. Yes' it was over the top of the range..but not far enough for them to want to find out why....
Now I can see the virtues personally for me to having high Testosterone, I would rather have that than at the other end and it be low, as it really suits me ,for training,muscle build, recovery ect, and it's other advantages ; ))) for the ladies! but it has been linked to heart disease, also if you are dominant in one Hormone, a lot work in tanden, so another get's flatlined.My way to combat the insulin resistance with higher than normal Androgens is to keep Adiponectin high, and Leptin sensitive...Low carb and running does this. But long term I don't know if I want to keep them high, but then again increasing Progesterone and estrogen has helped a lot. High or conversely low levels of certain Hormones can be due to Enzyme problems, not just gland failure. Or Pituitary problems. We all have broken Endocrine systems on here, it's just how broken and where
Jus ,you need to know your Cycle and your own Hormonal fluctuation. i'm afraid the only thing that is on offer with the NHS is to shut the Ovaries down with the Birth control Pill (Synthetics)...or put you straight into Menopause by shutting them down with strong meds which control the Hypothalamus...neither look good to me :x
Maybe you have high Androgens, a lot of Type 1's do . Maybe this is why you have the Acne. Might be worth looking into for you. Low Pregesterone causes Premenstrual pain, and pain at ovulation. I use a TD Prog cream at Ovulation it helped a lot, just for a few days. But again until you get the tests and the results you will not know for sure.
The thing is on the NHS they tell you your level is OK (within range, just, probably!) but unless all my hormones are up in the top 3rd of the ranges I'm not good.I like to be optimal now.
My Thyroid is the one I have battled with most for the longest and having Hashi's and being boarder line Hypo for so long and them fobbing me off. I ended up getting so poorly and Hypo-Thyroid even though my Labs were not bad (to them), that I had to jump up and down to get treated and even then I had to learn my TSH, T4 and T3 levels, get them to numbers where I felt good...and even on my own test for my Reverse T3 (which was high) and clear that myself, before I became symptomless for Hypo-Thyroid...They thought, we are giving you Thyroxine,now stop moaning and bog off :roll: :lol:
Thyroid to me is the most important one, well they all are really. I think they will keep shoving Statins down our necks forever, because this is far cheaper than treating the Hormone's down the stream we are missing. Cholesterol and Pregnenolone are the Mummy and Daddy of ALL Hormones and if you have Low Testosterone, Low Estrogen...Low T4, LowT3, it could be one or two, it could be many, then your Liver will keep pumping out Cholesterol to try and mend that Hormonal deficit...Crazy.
Your body keeps trying to make more of that low hormone, so keeps asking for more of the building block for it, Cholesterol ...so Cholesterol goes up, i don't think it's got anything to do with fat consumption...get your Thyroid where it should be and I think most people could come off statins, treat low Testosterone more in Andropause, men will feel better and they might not have to take statins. And hopefully less Metformin if they are Type 2. BUT STATINS ARE CHEAP.
Jus, PM me if you want, let me know where you are, anytime I can help I will. Sorry for rant but it drives me mad, I feel sorry for the state of Hormone replacement therapy for Men and Women in this country...but we are VERY lucky to have insulin The rest of it is down to us kid!
I hear ya Lady!!! The visit to the Endo/Gyne :roll: If it ain't the old PCOS then they don't wanna know!! My advice to you is whatever they do test wise for you GET THE RESULTS, the whole lot, a print out...they won't like it some of them and a couple of times I had to go back to my GP(who is very good) to get hospital print outs, but I got em. I researched them and learnt about my situation, I also did what I could afford privately :roll: Not easy!
KNOW your ranges Jus, I had high Testosterone all the way through my Cycle, no fluctuations and it should, obviously they thought Ovarian, my ovaries are as clean as a whistle, so no PCOS as soon as they found that out, see ya! I had no symptoms of PCOS, no virilisation, nothing!
Testosterone causes insulin resistance in women, the oposite of men, with me it is Adrenal, again i wanted to know why I had this, they didn't give a monkeys. Yes' it was over the top of the range..but not far enough for them to want to find out why....
Now I can see the virtues personally for me to having high Testosterone, I would rather have that than at the other end and it be low, as it really suits me ,for training,muscle build, recovery ect, and it's other advantages ; ))) for the ladies! but it has been linked to heart disease, also if you are dominant in one Hormone, a lot work in tanden, so another get's flatlined.My way to combat the insulin resistance with higher than normal Androgens is to keep Adiponectin high, and Leptin sensitive...Low carb and running does this. But long term I don't know if I want to keep them high, but then again increasing Progesterone and estrogen has helped a lot. High or conversely low levels of certain Hormones can be due to Enzyme problems, not just gland failure. Or Pituitary problems. We all have broken Endocrine systems on here, it's just how broken and where
Jus ,you need to know your Cycle and your own Hormonal fluctuation. i'm afraid the only thing that is on offer with the NHS is to shut the Ovaries down with the Birth control Pill (Synthetics)...or put you straight into Menopause by shutting them down with strong meds which control the Hypothalamus...neither look good to me :x
Maybe you have high Androgens, a lot of Type 1's do . Maybe this is why you have the Acne. Might be worth looking into for you. Low Pregesterone causes Premenstrual pain, and pain at ovulation. I use a TD Prog cream at Ovulation it helped a lot, just for a few days. But again until you get the tests and the results you will not know for sure.
The thing is on the NHS they tell you your level is OK (within range, just, probably!) but unless all my hormones are up in the top 3rd of the ranges I'm not good.I like to be optimal now.
My Thyroid is the one I have battled with most for the longest and having Hashi's and being boarder line Hypo for so long and them fobbing me off. I ended up getting so poorly and Hypo-Thyroid even though my Labs were not bad (to them), that I had to jump up and down to get treated and even then I had to learn my TSH, T4 and T3 levels, get them to numbers where I felt good...and even on my own test for my Reverse T3 (which was high) and clear that myself, before I became symptomless for Hypo-Thyroid...They thought, we are giving you Thyroxine,now stop moaning and bog off :roll: :lol:
Thyroid to me is the most important one, well they all are really. I think they will keep shoving Statins down our necks forever, because this is far cheaper than treating the Hormone's down the stream we are missing. Cholesterol and Pregnenolone are the Mummy and Daddy of ALL Hormones and if you have Low Testosterone, Low Estrogen...Low T4, LowT3, it could be one or two, it could be many, then your Liver will keep pumping out Cholesterol to try and mend that Hormonal deficit...Crazy.
Your body keeps trying to make more of that low hormone, so keeps asking for more of the building block for it, Cholesterol ...so Cholesterol goes up, i don't think it's got anything to do with fat consumption...get your Thyroid where it should be and I think most people could come off statins, treat low Testosterone more in Andropause, men will feel better and they might not have to take statins. And hopefully less Metformin if they are Type 2. BUT STATINS ARE CHEAP.
Jus, PM me if you want, let me know where you are, anytime I can help I will. Sorry for rant but it drives me mad, I feel sorry for the state of Hormone replacement therapy for Men and Women in this country...but we are VERY lucky to have insulin
The rest of it is down to us kid!As Fallenstar highlighted, liver dumps can actually be used to your advantage to avoid hypos. Google the 10 second maximal sprint and you'll find a wealth of information on this topic.
