Lower protein= lower weight

TorqPenderloin said:

Semantics. As far as I'm concerned " I need 150% less insulin" is a claim.

I'm not denying that you need less bonus insulin by limiting your protein intake. In fact, I'd actually support what you're saying for the most part on that subject.

My skepticism is around the fact that your basal absorption rates are so low it would be impossible to accurately dose with a pen (you would have to be on a pump to get any sort of accuracy).

As far as your quote "Many say an egg bf will require just as much insulin as porridge," I'd very much like to see any sort of evidence to support that.

Many t1ds have inhibited alpha cell function which can cause issues with their ability to regulate glucagon. With that in mind, I could agree with SOME of what you're saying. Note: very few t2ds have inhibited glucagon function. It's my understanding that that's why protein usually had a different effect on them.

Side note: I've noticed you use different units of measurement on occasion and mentioned "1oz of protein." That's a considerable reduction as 1oz=~28.35 grams.

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I can't answer the basal thing and absorption rate is beyond my scope of knowledge. The science doesn't add up but my body requires it. Last night I went to bed at 91. Took one unit and woke up at 80. Without it I would haven been 140 or so. I've tried none and it always raises me beyond my comfort zone so apparently I do need it and yea, I use a pen. I've also tested many times throughout the night and I'm fairly steady. Sometimes a little lower than when I wake up but nothing to worry about.

Egg: I have no evidence. As I stated, 'people have said'. In fact just recently on another thread but unfortunately I don't remember which one. Interesting about the glucagon function. Didn't know that!!! As I stated above I believe it's a morning thing for the most part. I didn't see your post until after I posted. Mornings are a real b****r for me. I have some weird phenomenon going on. Protein at bf always raised me, well before type 1 DX. I also felt 'off'
I know 2 oz is 28.3 g and each ounce of specific protein can vary in pure protein. White chicken has more pure protein per ounce than shrimp or tuna etc. I was roughly saying one ounce but I was eating 7 g pure protein. Roughly one ounce of weight.

Can you tell me more about this alpha cell function and glucagon? I'd be very interested. I've always felt like my insulin and bs are bickering in the morning even with flat bs. I don't feel that at all later in the day. Maybe it's this glucagon thing. Well whatever it is I feel much better in the morning now.

ickihun said:

I'm feeling lost as financially I have to feed hubby and kids too without taking too much from the family income for just me.
I think I will just consciencesly reduce protein levels for a month and see what happens.
I'll let you know.
I'm keeping away from putting myself under too much extra pressure at mo.
Softly, softly catch thee monkey, hopefully!

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Hi hun!
I understand the financial end but it's actually much cheaper for me than the way I used to eat. Protein isn't cheap so now it just goes much further. I don't buy any junk stuff and that's generally more expensive. Just protein, veggies and avocado for the most part. I buy some more expensive proteins like lamb and beef but I balance that out with chicken, turkey,eggs and canned tuna/ salmon.
I am fortunate ( if you can call it that) that this came on after my kids were grown and gone. I know how difficult it would be to have to shop and cook for them now. Even when they visit it can be challenging. All that food around all the time. Not to mention we are ALL foodies and no stranger to a knife and fork! I just keep it simple when they're here. A protein, veg and salad and for them I make a starch like rosemary garlic sweet potatoes and I cook loads so there's left overs for them. My son prefers white potato with cheese and bacon so I make a huge batch and scoop onto a cookie sheet with an ice cream scooper and freeze. He takes whatever he wants and heats it. Less time I. The kitchen and more time to spend with them.
It's more a matter of finding the right routine and then set auto pilot.

Yes please let me know.... it could solve/ help loads of things for you

ickihun said:

It wasn't me who said an egg breakfast same insulin need as porridge but I need just under the same amount of insulin. In fact I might need more for egg as I'm on mixed insulin and highly insulin resistant. So 100-110units of mixed hm3 I need. That reduces higher bg prefood and covers food, additionally enough insulin to cover a liver dump before next meal.

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I know it wasn't you but it's interesting you have some of the same. I thought I was getting a liver dump later as well but I believe it's just activity in the morning from cortisol and adrenaline. I need insulin after bf too. My insulin covers my bf but hen I rise which is why I can't take more all at once or I'll drop then spike even higher. Just a little boost an hour or so after I eat.

Now I've researched the glucagon thing and it's making more sense, especially in the morning when it seems everything is over reactive. Eating just a fatty bf is helping and moving my morning protein to lunch or snack when I take the small insulin boost. Same protein just different time of day. Seems I'm much more insulin sensitive this way too.
All these little intricacies and nuances.....lol.

After a bit more research into glucagon I am convinced that is my problem especially in the morning coming off a fast.
I also read it causes inflammation and slows intestinal mobility so that could be where my weight loss came from.
Glucagon opposes insulin which would be why I needed much more insulin the morning at the time I'm most IR. Many other tie bits too

Though some ( even many) type 2's don't get a splike from protein but I sure did. Just putting it out there for people if they are stuck understanding spikes while eating low carb.

And I don't think I would say MOST type 1's eat moderate protein. MANY would probably be a better word as MANY T1's do eat low carb and feel better for it. And MANY have a hard time keeping flat bs with carbs. It's all personally choice and different ranges of carbs for each individual. I certainly am not alone in my low carb meal plan.

azure said:

Low carb is 130g or under It doesn't have to be a lot of carbs to help stop the protein issue

That's aimed at others - I kmow you don't want to eat carbs

Most Type 1s eat moderately low carbs, which is more than sufficient to stop protein spikes and maintain a healthy weight. Type 2s may have other/additional isdues to consider, of course.

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I don't understand how carbs stop the protein spike. Glucagon is still released its protein. And perhaps low carbers ( or kepo adapted people) see it more pronounced and carb eaters just see it as part of the meal but could potentially be using the insulin for the carbs that also work for the protein. Protein can come in hours later for everyone. I'm not sure ( actually I am) that most people aren't looking for or finding all the nuances that my OCD self does. They just see some fluctuation and are fine with it as long as their numbers are in range. As stated, I'm OCD and all this interests me so that's why I'm OCD. LOL.
I never knew about the protein element until I read the Rosedale diet which is not geared toward diabetics but rather just a healthy lifestyle. That was my misssing link and this was well before my DX. He is about keeping insulin levels low ( even more so than bs) lectin low and the mTor pathway. I found it very interesting and useful. I'm not just about diabetes but also good nutrition so I read tons and have for years. Kind of my hobby.

Back to the carbs with protein stopping a spike from protein? Any clue?

I also think it must be much easier to stay level with a pump be MDI. my basal is long gone in the morning. Pumper have a little on board to mop things up at all times. Maybe that's a reason it works so well for you ?

I'm not challenging you, just looking for more knowledge

AndBreathe said:

Kristin, what are your preprandial and postpreandial blood readings?

Your personal choice is to be very (maybe even overly) tight on absolutely everything.

As I understand your stats, you are 5' 8" and 120lbs. Provided that's correct, your BMI comes in at 18.1, which is under weight. Your calorie intake is very, very low, for any long-term, maintenance programme. You cannot afford to lose more weight, but it sounds like your body is already operating in starvation mode, especially considering how you relate increasing certain foods impacts you disproportionately. Your body could be trying to recover from a period of starvation. I seem to recall reading something a while back saying you were often hungry at night, impacting your ability to sleep. Is this still the case?

My deep and honest concern for you is that you may be becoming (if not already) vitamin deficient. It would be entirely hypocritical of me to suggest you trundle off and carb up, because when I needed to gain back a couple of kilos, post surgery, I didn't head for bread, rice and all the stuff we know has the potential for rapid weight gain. It took a while to achieve, but I did manage to get back to my pre-surgery weight. I eat shed loads of vegetables, so I pick plenty vitamins there, plus generous quantities of protein and fat. Aside from the odd lettuce leaf, I don't see you talk much about greenery intake.

I appreciate you probably won't enjoy reading this message, but I only post it our of concern. An individual's way of living is their own concern, provided they are thriving on it

When did you last have a blood panel done with all your hormone and vitamins included?

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Thank you for your concern but I have been this weight give or take 5 pounds for about 25 years not including the horrid loss before diagnosis. I have blood panels done every year and they're always excellent. Albumin is always right in the middle. Electrolytes great, D 72 now but was very deficient before DX. B12 and folate are always very high but nobody seems concerned. Cholesterol since avocado has come down and all ratios ideal. A1C 5.1 for 18 months. Everything on my comprehensive metabolic panel is all good. Now this wasn't the case when I ate loads more protein. Everything was off.

I eat veggies, mostly green. I have digestive issues and always have and I don't process fiber or carbs well. Never have my whole life. In my fridge and freezer right now I have celery radish onion Brussels sprouts asparagus green been broccoli mushrooms. I eat veggies with all meals. I love veggies. I also snack on them throughout the day. I make a bowl of steamed in the morning and eat as the day goes on as well as the raw ones I mix in with my avocado and protein. Dinner always includes salad.
As far as starving. If I eat more food at one time my digestion backs up, reflux, beltch, etc. I am by no means starving. Over eating is not good for anyone nor neccesary. My BMI is in the low side but most people's are too high. Which is the better evil? I have always had a good metabolism. I eat tuntil satisfied and stop. I eat when I'm hungry. My hubbies BMI says he's obese and he is far from obese. He is tall and thin and muscular. You can only take the bMI thing so far.
I eat a vast variety of protein. All sort of fish, tuna, salmon, lamb, beef, chicken, turkey, eggs.

I am not hungry at night. I need a snack ( or maybe just want one ) or I don't sleep. Not due to hunger. If I don't eat I have to get up or wake up and have a snack. I'm thinking it relates to lantus.

I have been wearing the same size cloths for many many years with the exception of DX of course.

Some people require less calories than others. I assure you I am not trying to lose weight.

And yes, I am a perfectionist. Always have been. Also aware I don't need to have such tight control.

I seriously don't understand all this concern over 2 pounds which turned into less as the scale was up a bit. Weight fluctuates. And I simply took 1 ounce of protein and moved it to later in the day and added another half of an avocado. No big deal. If I'm hungry I snack on avocado or veggies, nuts, pumpkin seed or olives. Even some cheese with melted butter lately. I don't see the problem. I've always been a gravy, never liked big meals. If you add my meals and grazing together it makes a few larger meals.

I would think people that fast even just through breakfast not to mention these day long fasts would have a much greater risk of deficiencies. I NEVER miss a meal or snacks. And my food is the highest quality available. Organic unprocessed, well sourced etc etc. There is something to be said about quality over quantity.

I appreciate your concern but I don't think it's anything to be concerned about. If I continue to drop weight I will certainly do something about it. But I don't consider walking around bloated and being bogged down a good thing

@AndBreathe , now it concerns me your concerned lol.

Some history. I've had never in my life weighed more than 135 pounds and that was back in the day of low fat high carb. Then I found the Carbohydrate Addicts Diet and felt awesome immediately compared to low fat high carb. I was constantly bloated, cramps, achy and zero energy. Then on to a more Adkins approach. Same great results. Then refined Atkins to higher quality foods. Then threw in some of the Blood Type Diet principles. I am an O hunter and thrive in a mild state of ketosis. True. Grains dairy and legumes are not processed well by O hunters. True for me.

You see I have really poor digestion as well as my daughter. She buckled over in pain every single day for years. Since she adopted a strict paleo diet she is much better but still eats sweet potato and lots of fruit but they do cause her pain and bloating. Some of us just don't have cast iron stomachs and can't just eat any type of food or in any quantity. Veggies with thick skins and seeds bother both of us. As does apples and sweet fruits. Many people don't eat any veggies as they don't digest them. I love them. I just need to not eat too many at one time and space them out throughout the day. I spent years and years bloated, constipated, and crampy. Not going back there. When I read people eating large amounts of zuchhini or cucumber with those thick skins and seeds I almost need to pass some gas thinking about it haha. Flax, chia, psyllium and such literally stop my digestion in its tracks. I envy people i see eating pizza, ( though I will eat the topppings) Caramel macchiatos, sandwiches, pasta etc. it's not my diabetes that prevents me from eating it but rather my stupid stomach. Looking back to when I was a teenager I remember loving my moms spaghetti but always had pain and was stuffed after, had to unbutton my pants and still looking for more food. Ridiculous. No idea it was the food. I had no clue back then it was food. I used to love powdered sugar free iced tea but would always cramp within minutes. No idea it was artificial sweeteners. So you see, it's more my stomach that dictates my diet more so than diabetes. Fortunately they work well together. I can't remember the last time I had fish and chips or any fried foods as much as I love them. I absolutely adored a buffalo fried cod sandwich with tartar sauce gobbled on it dipped my fries in the sauce too. Always left the place buckled over in pain. My stomach doesn't allow it. All this being said, at the end of the day my stomach as well as my diabetes have brought me to a very healthy diet. It's hard to gain weight on a healthy diet. I would like to think all this happened because I had a poor diet but I fed my kids healthy foods and my daughters stomach is far worse than mine.


Believe it or not managing my stomach is worse than managing my diabetes. I do much better munching my way through the day. With the variety of protein, veggies, nuts and seeds and fats that I eat, where do you think I'm deficient in nutrients? Or why? I know people love bullet proof coffee but I seee very little nutritional value in it. I see people fasting for days. Obviously no nutrition there. Each and everyone of my foods is nutrient dense. Every single one ( except my coffee) right down to my dark chocolate.

Lastly. I have been my present weight for many years. Then of course the dreaded weight loss pre DX. After insulin I gained 10 pounds a month and that was much needed and I was very happy. Then coincidentally it stopped right where I was previousLy and stayed there + or - 5 pounds. So this must be homeostasis for me. There are days I eat a lot more than others and days I don't. It all averages out. My weight fluctuates daily. The weight may come back. I don't care. I just think the flatter stomach is a good sign of less intestinal distress. No idea what unlocked but something did. Or I may report back in a few days it was a flick and I'm instantly 9 months pregnant again lol

I never hold back on fat. I just eat healthy fat. Not soy mayo, fried foods, hydrogenated seed oils, grain fed red meat fat ( though sometimes when we're out as the places we go don't even know what grass fed is).. my proteins are organic poultry ( I don't like gmo or non organic soy/ corn) wild caught Alaskan fish, organic pastures eggs and grass fed lamb and beef.

As my kids are grown and out I can afford very high quality food. I started studying nutrition ( not diabetes) 10+ years ago to try to help my daughter. It became my hobby. Then in came diabetes and refined it in the beginning by eating some sweet potato fruit and black beans for carbs. Stomach said no as did bs and ended up eating the same diet I have for years. I have a large variety of foods. Stupid thing is even after the kids left we still have in operation a refrigerator/ freezer in the house as well as garage and an upright freezer in the garage. All stocked.


Hope this helps and though I do appreciate your concern I believe my diet is healthier than most peoples. Some people are just naturally thin and please understand , I do have fat on my body. It's seems it's all just around my middle. It's always been that way.

Ok that got long but that is my history. Stomach is harder to manage than diabetes. Lucky for me they don't oppose each other.

Lesleywo said:

Hi Kristin

You said in one of your posts (I couldn't find it again to quote) that your B12 and Folate are high. Do you mean top of the range high or double top of the range? I always had very high folate, nothing was ever said. I put it down to my large consumption of green vegetables and thought it was a good thing but when I started seeing an integrative doctor he tested me for the MTHFR gene and it came back positive. Not sure if you've heard of it but it means you are unable to methylate/absorb B vitamins and therefore they just hang around in your blood stream. So I take methylated B vitamins which I get on prescription from a compounding chemist. Just a thought .. sorry, don't want to give you something else to be OCD over (no offence, your words!)

Most doctors here don't know anything much about it. But it's actually quite a common problem. Only been known about 10 years I think.

Lesley

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Yes thanks. B12 and folate are always high I completely get the MTFFR GENE. I have all the bad genes. Over produce, underproduced etc. I'm double high b 12 and folate.
No worries about OCD lol. Comes and goes. Balanc is key. I love learning others experiences.

DaftThoughts said:

I also feel the urgent need to correct you on this because I fear this has your views on the amount warped. 1 liter water equals 1kg. That's a little over 2 pounds. A glass is generally 250ml, so you really lost closer to 4 glasses of water in weight. That's a big difference to what you're visualizing,, and probably why people are so worried here!

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Thank you for the info and I do keep an eye on my muscles and I do know the body will use its own muscle if it needs too. Mine aren't changing. I do make sure to eat enough fat too. I actually eat when I'm not hungry because I know I need those calories. I could easily skip lunch but I never do and I also snack as well.
To add that 1.5 of those 2 pounds are back but the stomach is still flatter. Goes to natural weight fluctuation. When I drink red wine the scale goes up the next day. Water retention of course. No big deal. Hormones effect weight as well. It's all very natural.
I have been eating the same amount of protein for two years. I just moved some to later in the day and added some more avocado. . Nothing radical.
Just to mention, my profile pic was just of my face. Hard to tell what the rest of me looks like. Other than when I was sick I have been wearing the same cloths and same sizes for years. I have periods when they are a little more snug and periods when they're a little loser. I think we all do.

Appreciate the concern

DaftThoughts said:

I also feel the urgent need to correct you on this because I fear this has your views on the amount warped. 1 liter water equals 1kg. That's a little over 2 pounds. A glass is generally 250ml, so you really lost closer to 4 glasses of water in weight. That's a big difference to what you're visualizing,, and probably why people are so worried here!

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I was just using water as an example. I wasn't being scientific. I stand corrected.

Salvia said:

Hi @Kristin251 I feel I have to butt-in on this thread to say thank you for telling us about your personal journey over the years. I have found it fascinating, and I'm a little bit envious that you have found a range of lovely foods that exactly suits your body and lifestyle; I'm a long way from that place and can only hope to get there eventually.

I was also interested to hear about the Carbohydrate Addicts Diet (never heard of that before). Isn't it astonishing that some gps/dietitians/hcps complain about 'this new fad' of lchf, when the CAD has been around since early 1990s. I haven't read much about the CAD but on quick glance it appears to be similar to low carb, or an extension of it, in many ways.

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Thanks Salvia!! CAD is a low carb diet ish. If I remember correctly it's basicall pick one meal a day to eat carbs at and don't eat any the other meals. Then at the meal you do eat them you are to have 1/3 plate of veggies, protein and carbs each. If you go back for more carbs you need to also have the same amount of veggies and protein. I think that's the gist of it. And yes it is VERY old haha. That's when I realized how lousy carbs not only made me feel but how they effected my body. Fatigue, bloat, cramp, etc. Even down to my skin and cold sores.
There's another awesome book called primal body primal mind. Not geared toward diabetics but certainly is diabetic friendly. That book as well as the Rosedale diet are my favs. Low carb from above ground veggies, moderate protein and healthy fats to satisfy. It's really quite simple. To add that both say no more than 3 oz protein per meal and .8-1 g per kg lean body mass.
Finding the right diet was lots of trial and lots of error. But at the end of the day it settled on very healthy foods and listening to my body was huge. It never failed to tell me when it didn't like something, I just didn't always listen to it. One mans food is another mans poison. You'll get there!!

Oh and as for diabetic books I love blood sugar 101 and of course prefer the Bernstein solution over think like a pancreas because I'm low carb. I just used a conglomeration of books to find my right diet. There's usually a gem in every one of them

I agree. Knowledge is power! Skip CAD and go for the other two. Much more up to date and very interesting. Lots of gems in both of them. They're both fast reads and you can skim through the points if interest. I always skip the supplement part as I believe they're better from food if possible.
Not sure if you're familiar with blood sugar 101 but loads of info online at the website.

Cheers and thank you again for your support!!