Meat fats and IR - your experiences.

One issue is how much protein (as it can raise BG) is eaten with the meat fats. I have had it easy as I can control my BG while eating unlimited protein, I expect that is way I am OK with meat fats.

Since my HbA1c last christmas I have had to try very hard to get my BG to level out at a reasonable number. I have only done this by eating vegetables only for 6 weeks, so no meat. I have put meat back on the menu but not as much as I used to. Very definitely an ongoing balancing act at the moment so not much to add really.

Purely anecdotal but my experience is that I have to curb my fats, as dont lose weight if i have much, even when watching my calories. However, the only plant type fat i eat is oil oil and the rapeseed oil in my mayo. All the rest is butter, goose fat and cheese, plus the fat in the roasted meat.

Dont know if that answers anything

Losing weight is a bit different to just controlling BG, as to loose weight we must get the insulin low (only possible with low BG) so our body will burn fat, then provide less fat then the body is burning.

I am seeing Insulin resistance as a separate issue from BG's. I can get low BG's, but still have insulin resistance, shown by my weight loss stalling, which is not helped by me going over my own personal tolerance limit of sat fat intake. Is that what you are asking about @Fleegle ?

One thing which should - I think - be pointed out that meat fat and saturated fats are not one and the same thing.
Chickens, when ready to be cooked, are about 14 percent fat, but only 4 percent is the saturated type.
I do go to a local butcher to get my meat, and buy whole carcases which are cut up and packed as I like. I buy hogget - which is a well grown lamb, as it is less fatty than a young animal, but I have the fat trimmed off and packed up for freezing, as I prefer to use as much of the animal as possible. I roast the trimmings and collect the fat and juices. I also buy whole pigs.
I have a large freezer.
One thing which has become apparent with the passing of time is that my husband and I do not look as old as our years - reunions are quite interesting, as we are recognised, but by strange old people who are younger than us.
We do eat meat fairly frequently, but not large amounts.
I have had no problem at all with controlling by BG levels whilst eating fish, meats of all kinds, and eggs - and cream in coffee and on berries.

Hi @Freegle My personal experience is that when I was diagnosed I was not eating any meat fat as I was already vegetarian. On dropping all animal fat (eggs and dairy) last year I saw an unexpected but welcome drop in my hba1c plus I can tolerate more carbs now. I suspect there may be other issues at play with dairy fat - not as high protein as meat so different macros to consider plus it can cause inflammation in some people which could be elevating their bg levels in the background.

I embraced eating meat products enthusasatically and didn't worry about saturated fats at all. The result was a 4 stone weight loss, improved cholesterol markers and a reduction in Hba1c to near normal. My previous diet had been a very low fat diet.

I've since stalled , but on balance that has been more a result of eating too many calories in whatever low carb form it was. I am now trying a very restricted fasting/ low cab/low calorie diet to get back on track with the weight loss - which is working and my bs is reducing even further as a result ( fasting 4 - high after dawn phenonema 5.2 ) My bs goes up the closer I approach to 1800 calories per day - ie at present I can present metabolically normal figures - but they will only remain normal in the presence of calorie deficiency. As such even though I eat unrestricted types of fats and protein my need for total calories restriction inevitably reduces the portion size.

Meat fat - some meats have more fat than others, but for me - if I decide to have a lean steak for dinner - no sauce or marinade - I don't need to give a shot but having said that - if I had that same piece of steak and then sat around for the next couple of hours I likely would have to give myself a small dose of insulin. It's hard to isolate one thing when you have so many other variables at play - such as stress, hormones, physical health, weight and level of activity after eating. But that aside - unprocessed meat whether it's chicken, pork or beef - assuming there's no sauces or marinade have always had a negligible affect on my BGs.

You can have insulin resistance under enough control to get low BG reading, while your body is still producing too much insulin for you to burn fat and hence lose weight. Once option is to get some Ketostix and keep the carbs/protean low enough that you always get a reading of at least"trace", a higher reading is of no additional benefit.

I eat a lot of meat... usually the cheaper fattier cuts (pork belly, higher fat mince, short ribs).
I think that animal sourced fat is fine for me. HbA1c's in my signature.
When I did a zero carb month (all animal or dairy food) I found higher BG levels after lean meat especially chicken breast. An n=1 experiment but that is my experience.

Fleegle said:

I had been associating high BG after a meal was as a result of either two little insulin being produced or insulin resistance stopping the glucose from being absorbed. Specifically a really slow (four hour) return to normal BG.

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When that happens to me I am pretty sure it is gluconeogenesis, because it will happen in a protein meal, whether there is much fat in it or not. Of course, my protein meals involve animal protein with some fat (and some of that is saturated fat). But I don't notice much difference in digestion time between comparatively low fat animal protein meals like lean ham or chicken breast, and fattier meats like pork belly and lamb. It seems to be the quantity of protein that makes the difference.

Basically, if we eat large amounts of protein, it takes a while to digest (up to 4 hours, sometimes longer) and if we eat more protein than our bodies need to use as protein, then the excess is often broken down into glucose. So a large protein mean will show raised bgs for hours. It tends to me a moderate rise in bg, rather than the kind of high we get with carbs. Fat is known to slow digestion, but I am not aware that any work has been done on whether sat fat and non-sat fat digest at different speeds. Would be interested to hear, if there is such research.

Here is what wikkipedia says about gluconeogenesis.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gluconeogenesis

The reason I think I experience gluconeogenesis is because I first noticed it when I went very low carb, and raised my protein somewhat. Then stopped noticing it when I dropped my protein again. Now I only see it when I have a larger than usual protein meal, like a steak. I probably wouldn't have made the connection if I hadn't been wearing a Freestyle Libre. I find that the protein portion sizes used in the Dietdoctor.com recipes are at the top end of my non-gluconeogenesis experience. Larger portions will result in the bg hump I am talking about.

I'm not really sure where you want this thread to go @Fleegle Whether you are just talking about fat from meat or animal fats in general (fish, eggs, butter, cheese etc) I don't think you can separate them, to be honest. There may be people that eat only meat and none of the others, but I doubt there are many. If you are looking to see if just meat fats help or hinder BS I doubt you will get an answer. If BS is hindered, it may be meat fats, it may be dairy, it may be protein, or fish oil, or any number of other things - including portion sizes.

I eat

• Lean meat. If there is any visible fat I cut it off after cooking. This is because I hate it. It makes me gag and always has done! It is nothing to do with health issues. I eat steaks, but only fillet.
• The exception to the above is bacon
• Lamb's liver once weekly (fried)
• I grill rather than fry, but do fry eggs and mushrooms in butter
• Goose or duck fat for roasting
• Oily fish 4 times a week
• All dairy
• Loads of eggs
• The only milk I drink is skimmed in my tea. (hate creamy tea)

Since going low carb in 2014 my appetite lessened so my portion sizes are not huge. I don't snack.

I lost a third of my body weight in around 10 months, without a single stall. (BMI dropped from 31 to 21) This has been maintained ever since (2014). I have no idea how much visceral fat I have.

My base line BS levels are normal and rarely vary, but I do mostly run in the 5s with some 4s. (average fasting and pre-meals is currently 5.4) I don't eat breakfasts and stay flattish all morning. Post lunch rises are negligible. Post dinner rises are bigger but not massive. The more fat I eat, the longer the rise lasts, but I don't know which type of fat causes this. I don't mind this though, because it probably means the initial spike was lower. I prefer a longer but lower rise than a huge spike.

I do not notice any rises that could be attributed to protein, either post meal, bedtime, or the following day. I do not get liver dumps overnight.

If I eat the same amount of protein but one meal is high in saturated fat and one isn't I will certainly go higher and longer with the saturated fat. A meal high in saturated fat means I have to split my bolus by taking half at the beginning and half and hour or so later.

I do eat ( and love) chicken thighs but I don't eat the skin or cook them with additional fat
I eat rare lamb and beef but trim all visible fat. A fatty hamburger will keep me high for hours.
I eat lots of fish and poultry as well as eggs
Cheese and dairy raise me

Plant fats like olive oil, mayo, avocado keep me perfectly steady with out any lingering blood sugar

Since I take insulin I can see how saturated fat raises me and keeps me higher longer as additional insulin is needed at the next meal

Kristin251 said:

Since I take insulin I can see how saturated fat raises me and keeps me higher longer as additional insulin is needed at the next meal

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I have to take you to task slightly here.. it seems a lot of people say "saturated fat" when they mean something else.
An avocado has per 100g 19.5g of fat of which 4.1g are sat fats 21%
A chicken thigh has per 100g 17.4g of fat of which 4.6g are sat fats 26%
Not a huge difference in sat fat levels between the two.
The chicken thigh however has 17.9g of protein per 100g and the avocado 1.9g of protein per 100g...
Could this be what is causing the problem? Is it protein and gluconeogenesis rather than sat fat?

bulkbiker said:

I have to take you to task slightly here.. it seems a lot of people say "saturated fat" when they mean something else.
An avocado has per 100g 19.5g of fat of which 4.1g are sat fats 21%
A chicken thigh has per 100g 17.4g of fat of which 4.6g are sat fats 26%
Not a huge difference in sat fat levels between the two.
The chicken thigh however has 17.9g of protein per 100g and the avocado 1.9g of protein per 100g...
Could this be what is causing the problem? Is it protein and gluconeogenesis rather than sat fat?

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Good point. I should say animal fat vs plant fat. Not isolating saturated fat.
What I am saying is if I eat the same amount of protein and the same amount of fat at a meal and one is animal fat and one is plant fat like avocado or mayo I will be higher longer with the animal fat meal.
So let's use a fatty hamburger meal vs fish with mayo and avocado. The burger will require more insulin and hang out longer. I didn't realize all this when I was type 2 but after starting on insulin it became obvious. I have tested meals eating the same protein and amount of protein, the same veg and just switching fat sources. Say avocado and mayo vs butter and cheese. The animal fat meals are always harder on bs. I still eat them because I love them but I now know what to expect my bs to be.

Kristin251 said:

Good point. I should say animal fat vs plant fat. Not isolating saturated fat.
What I am saying is if I eat the same amount of protein and the same amount of fat at a meal and one is animal fat and one is plant fat like avocado or mayo I will be higher longer with the animal fat meal.
So let's use a fatty hamburger meal vs fish with mayo and avocado. The burger will require more insulin and hang out longer. I didn't realize all this when I was type 2 but after starting on insulin it became obvious. I have tested meals eating the same protein and amount of protein, the same veg and just switching fat sources. Say avocado and mayo vs butter and cheese. The animal fat meals are always harder on bs. I still eat them because I love them but I now know what to expect my bs to be.

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Interesting.. I was sure you knew the difference but so many people demonise "saturated fat" when in fact they eat quite a lot of it! I will have to try that kind of experiment on me and see the effects.. I just wish we could get an insulin meter to test our real responses.. maybe soon..

As a type 1 fat makes me very IR, particularly saturated fats.