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Meat fats and IR - your experiences.

I wonder if it isn't so much insulin resistance causing raised levels, as much as fat binding with any carbs in the meal. As fat does bind in that way, it keeps any initial rises lower than they would be without the fat, but prolongs the rise. I'm sure this is what happens with me. (From Libre graphs) Looking at the line from base before eating to returning to base after eating, is the area under this line better or worse with the fat? As my nurse showed me, on a graph it is better to see a long low hump back bridge than a short but high rounded peak.
 
bulkbiker said:
Interesting.. I was sure you knew the difference but so many people demonise "saturated fat" when in fact they eat quite a lot of it! I will have to try that kind of experiment on me and see the effects.. I just wish we could get an insulin meter to test our real responses.. maybe soon..
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Yup. Try it. As i said I didn't really make the connection until I started insulin and it became very clear animal fats require more insulin and a split bolus. I still weigh my protein as i gluconeogenesis as fast as carbs and I clearly see the difference keeping all other components the same.
Interesting too is lots of people need to bolus for eggs as much as for carbs.

For instance. I generally have an ounce or so of cheese with melted butter with my wine. Bolus 1/2 unit. Still get a slight rise. Yesterday I had an oz of tuna with mayo and avocado. Took standard 1/2 unit and had my wine. Maybe even a bit more wine. I dropped about 15(us) instead of rising 15 . Both snacks have about 6 proteins and the same amount of fat but the cheese and butter raise me and the tuna dropped me.
Very complex .....that's the big bad D!!!

Also worth mentioning is after the tuna dip, my dinner insulin dropped me as well even eating the same foods as normal
The cheese rise doesn't come until after an hour or so and by then my small insulin dose is dropping Andy cheese is continuing to rise. To stop the rise I'd need another half until after an hour. So I would need twice the insulin and an additional shot for the same amount of protein and fat. If I took the whole dose at the beginning my insulin would get there before my food and I'd drop first then spike.

On the flip side, if i eat lean protein like chicken or fish without enough fat I get a sharp spike and very little drop. The animal fat has a much slower rise and generally lower but I don't come back down without more insulin later

This is where my avocado with its fat and fiber bridge the gap from insulin and food.
 
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Coconut oil has more sat fat than butter or lard. But it is mainly medium length chain fatty acids, so is easier to digest than the others. This is what allows many to claim it is a healthier fat to use

I personally have problems with protein. One faggot in a meal, and no discernible sugar .bump, but 2 faggots raise it by around 2 mmol/l. Quite often an LC meal with large protein content will give me a bump at the 4hr PP time, so my bgl usually falls at 2 hr then rises at 4hr. Morning levels have dropped again..

I have no idea if my IR is helped or hindered by the fat I eat. I do know that if I want to put on weight lost through diet, then I increase my fat for a while. My weight is now pretty steady, at between 64 and 67 kg. I tend to use dairy fat rather than meat fat since it is easier to control the qty, but I do occasionally eat crackling and pork scratchings. I have lost a load off my midriff so my LC diet has certainly tackled the daddy baby bump and I have reduced my Gliclazide from 320 mg to 40 mg so I need less insulin now, but this is not a recognised test for IR.

I used to be fed beef dripping on bread as a kid, and our bacon used to be cooked in it too. mmmmmm! I gave up marge many years ago in favour of butter, so it was not a sudden change when they published that report on dietary fat being ok. My forebears all ate a healthy diet and died at reasonable age, usually of gout, and there were no LOW FAT options at the butcher in their day. My cholesterol went up when I started LCHF, but has dropped back now. My GP will not do the breakdown tests due to cost, so I do not know my trig/hdl ratio
 
There have been a couple of really good blogposts published in the past week that address a lot of these issues. They're a long read, but well worth the effort:

Amy Berger of Tuit Nutrition on "More Than You Ever Wanted to Know about Protein & Gluconeogenesis":
http://www.tuitnutrition.com/2017/07/gluconeogenesis.html

Marty Kendall of Optimising Nutrition on "Vegan vs Keto for Diabetes - Which One Is Optimal?" - he covers a lot of ground, but dietary fat and insulin resistance is one of the topics:
https://optimisingnutrition.com/2017/07/25/vegan-vs-keto-for-diabetes-which-is-optimal/
 
We generally consider that fats do not convert into glucose, so do not raise bgl levels. However there is a pathway that gets switched on while in ketosis and this can provide useable glucose from ingested lipids, Not sure if this process prefers SFA or UFA as the basic building blocks. Again, by that stage the source being meat or not meat is probably of no consequence
 
Prior to being diabetic we ate a variety of beans (lentils, black-beans, chickpeas, pintos) grains (rice, quinoa) for many years. Little meat unless it was organic chicken. After I was diagnosed, I couldn't get bs low and I would check constantly. Which left me tears most days. I tried everything, and was basically eating one meal day. I stumbled on Dr. Bernstein, by accident. He doesn't promote high fat, or high protein (although his diet consists of both) and very little carbs. Slowly I got bs to a normal level. Now I eat avocados (avocados just about every day) duck, pork, cheese, butter, ghee, cabbage, spinach, eggs. I follow certain portion sizes. My husband is thrilled to finally have bacon, I was against it for years, I even forgot how much I loved it. For me it all about moderation and balance.
 
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I think this may be backing up a theory of mine that the same diet can cause a different reaction in people. And we have individual nutritional needs and responses. Therefore there is no definitive answer to the original question, as we are all different.

A bit like some of us can eat very few or no carbs carbs, and some can only eat one or two types of carbs - for example, i can eat a small amount of bread made the slow way, by my hubby, from stone ground wholemeal organic flour and fresh yeast, but other breads, even wholemeal ones, spike me. Or i can eat a small amount of potatoes, but even a dessertspoon of rice or pasta is a disaster for my levels. And white flour, in any form, gives me stomach ache.

Not trying to side track this into a carbs debate, but using them as an example of how the same foods, in the same quantities, can affect us all in different ways.

(clear as mud?)
 
serenity648 said:
I think this may be backing up a theory of mine that the same diet can cause a different reaction in people. And we have individual nutritional needs and responses. Therefore there is no definitive answer to the original question, as we are all different.

A bit like some of us can eat very few or no carbs carbs, and some can only eat one or two types of carbs - for example, i can eat a small amount of bread made the slow way, by my hubby, from stone ground wholemeal organic flour and fresh yeast, but other breads, even wholemeal ones, spike me. Or i can eat a small amount of potatoes, but even a dessertspoon of rice or pasta is a disaster for my levels. And white flour, in any form, gives me stomach ache.

Not trying to side track this into a carbs debate, but using them as an example of how the same foods, in the same quantities, can affect us all in different ways.

(clear as mud?)
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I agree with you. Just as we all react in different ways to the same carbs, we will all react differently to the same fats and the same protein. I can eat potatoes (and chips thank goodness) in small portions, but bread is a different matter. Some folk can eat bread.
So presumably, some folk can eat animal fats and some can't.
 
ringi said:
Losing weight is a bit different to just controlling BG, as to loose weight we must get the insulin low (only possible with low BG) so our body will burn fat, then provide less fat then the body is burning.
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Not quite sure where you are going here.

When you switch into nutritional ketosis by eating few carbohydrates (the level of carbohydrates below which you go into ketosis is personal) then your need for insulin (for moving glucose out of the blood stream) reduces and so your production of insulin reduces.

This does not necessarily mean that you have low BG because the glucose in your blood still needs regulating, and T2s tend to have an inefficient BG regulation system.

So; burning fat reduces insulin demand, so insulin goes low.

You don't have to get your insulin low before you can burn fat.
The low insulin is a consequence of burning fat instead of carbohydrate.

Edit: tried to post this about 2 hours ago. Came back and tried again and this time it went first time.
 
Hi all I am about to ask a question that may be somewhat silly and may make be look a bit obtuse but how do we tell what level our IR stands at and how much insulin we are producing. And further to that how can I as a T2 know how fats affect my IR.

Yes I have lost a lot of weight and my BG is reasonably controlled but I don't know how to differentiate between the effects of low carb or the fats I eat.
 
LittleGreyCat said:
Not quite sure where you are going here.

When you switch into nutritional ketosis by eating few carbohydrates (the level of carbohydrates below which you go into ketosis is personal) then your need for insulin (for moving glucose out of the blood stream) reduces and so your production of insulin reduces.

This does not necessarily mean that you have low BG because the glucose in your blood still needs regulating, and T2s tend to have an inefficient BG regulation system.

So; burning fat reduces insulin demand, so insulin goes low.

You don't have to get your insulin low before you can burn fat.
The low insulin is a consequence of burning fat instead of carbohydrate.

Edit: tried to post this about 2 hours ago. Came back and tried again and this time it went first time.
Click to expand...

My understanding is that insulin is the fat storage hormone so with high insulin levels you can't loose weight as your body is still in storage mode. Once your insulin production lowers then fat burning becomes possible. Unfortunately we have no way of measuring our insulin levels so can't really know when our levels are low enough. That's why fasting works so well as we aren't triggering any insulin response by eating.
 
JohnEGreen said:
Hi all I am about to ask a question that may be somewhat silly and may make be look a bit obtuse but how do we tell what level our IR stands at and how much insulin we are producing. And further to that how can I as a T2 know how fats affect my IR.

Yes I have lost a lot of weight and my BG is reasonably controlled but I don't know how to differentiate between the effects of low carb or the fats I eat.
Click to expand...

I think you need to have a blood test which checks the level of insulin in your blood.
If you have a lot of insulin but your BG isn't going through the floor then I think you are proven to be IR.

The next question is "what is causing my IR - that is, which organ(s) are resisting?".
I don't know how they check muscle, but I think that a fatty liver is associated with IR and there are some blood markers for a fatty liver plus you can have an ultrasound scan.

This is something I intend to take up with my healthcare team because I would like to know the answers to the questions you asked.
 
LittleGreyCat said:
I think you need to have a blood test which checks the level of insulin in your blood.
Click to expand...

Just had my annual review yesterday.. asked Diabetes Nurse if she could refer me for an insulin test.. she'd never heard of it..
When I told her about my CAC scan she said "why would you want to know that?" after telling me I needed statins because my cholesterol is 6.0. I do despair sometimes..
 
bulkbiker said:
My understanding is that insulin is the fat storage hormone so with high insulin levels you can't loose weight as your body is still in storage mode. Once your insulin production lowers then fat burning becomes possible. Unfortunately we have no way of measuring our insulin levels so can't really know when our levels are low enough. That's why fasting works so well as we aren't triggering any insulin response by eating.
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I am not convinced that this is 100% correct but more than willing to be convinced.

One thing against this is the traditional sudden weight loss as an indication of the onset of T2.

I understand that this is due to high insulin levels and high BG levels but insulin resistance preventing the insulin from working.

So the body switches to burning fat (and sometimes muscle) to be able to run on ketones.
This is the dangerous type of ketosis which can lead to ketoacidosis.

However, must revise the many things that insulin does apart from telling the cells to turn glucose into fat.
 
JohnEGreen said:
Hi all I am about to ask a question that may be somewhat silly and may make be look a bit obtuse but how do we tell what level our IR stands at and how much insulin we are producing. And further to that how can I as a T2 know how fats affect my IR.

Yes I have lost a lot of weight and my BG is reasonably controlled but I don't know how to differentiate between the effects of low carb or the fats I eat.
Click to expand...
I think if you find yourself able to reduce your medication successfully, then this could be an indiction that you are using less insulin. I reduced my Glilazide dose. and this med forces my pancreas to overproduce insulin, so reducing this med is proportional to the change in insulin, provided I am still maintaining my weight and bgl averages.

There is a way of doing a home grown GTT test that allows an indication of IR to be calculated. It is not as accurate as a lab test, but may be useful if using it to monitor your personal delta change, rather than comparing against others.
 
Hi All

Just a gentle reminder that @Fleegle requested people stay on topic.
I agree that discussing IR is (broadly) on topic, I just wouldn't like Fleegle's question about personal experiences, saturated fats, and IR to get lost...

Maybe start another thread to discuss weight loss, insulin and IR?
 
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