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New RCT studies challenge official dietary advice

Discussion in 'Diabetes News' started by Oldvatr, Jul 9, 2019.

  1. Dillinger

    Dillinger Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    Great post!

    Have you seen Kendrick on potassium?

    https://drmalcolmkendrick.org/2013/03/04/potassium-your-invisible-friend/

    It's very interesting but bizarrely it's impossible to get potassium supplements at the levels he talks about for improving all cause mortality; about 4500 mg of potassium per day for women and 5400 mg of potassium per day for men.

    The NHS says that adults (19 to 64 years) need 3,500mg of potassium a day.

    https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vitamins-and-minerals/others/

    The highest level I can see on Amazon is 100mg per tablet.

    So, if you were low-carbing and not eating bananas you would need to consume 35 potassium tablets a day to hit that recommended level.

    If you are a man and want to hit the 'optimal' levels you'd need to consume 54 tablets each day!

    That is mad.

    Obviously, we take in potassium through our normal diet, but I just don't understand the position on the supplements. There's only so much spinach and broccoli one can eat in a day after all...

    As Kendrick says "to my mind, the most important thing about potassium is that I cannot find any study, anywhere, which suggests that increasing potassium consumption may be harmful. In short, it seems to be something that does only good."

    Odd eh?

    Best

    Dillinger
     
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    #21 Dillinger, Jul 12, 2019 at 12:31 PM
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2019
  2. Dark Horse

    Dark Horse · Well-Known Member

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    That's an impressive drop in systolic blood pressure for people changing their diet from 'typical American diet' to one compatible with 'Dietary Guidelines for Americans'. Sounds very worthwhile.
     
  3. Mr_Pot

    Mr_Pot Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    We take in a lot of potassium with our food and the kidneys prevent it being excessive by excreting it in urine. People with reduced kidney function have to be careful to restrict the amount of potassium in their food. Very high potassium levels can be fatal which I would have considered to be harmful. If you want to increase your potassium levels for some reason then selecting some high potassium foods is probably the way to go rather than a supplement.
     
  4. Brunneria

    Brunneria Other · Moderator
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    Thanks :)

    The medical profession is very aware of hyperkalemia - which is high potassium levels, because they can be dangerous.
    https://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/hyperkalemia-potassium-importance#1
    but the condition is really only an issue for people's whose systems are already compromised by kidney problems or other drugs which can cause hyperkalemia as a contraindication.
    Obviously in those circumstances the caution is perfectly justified - and those people are a minority.

    Yet everywhere you look you find dire warnings about taking too much potassium.
    Most of us are deficient in potassium, and need to take more - there are long term health implications (including heart problems) for people who are deficient in potassium.
    https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/325065.php

    Many people on low carb diets are missing some of the heavy hitting foods in terms of providing potassium.

    As for the supplements - gosh,it drives me mad.
    Because of the extreme hyper awareness of the risks of hyperkalemia, then supplement doses are legally capped at 100mg.
    That is 1/50 of what the average person is recommended to take.

    Consequently, it is a real challenge to take too much potassium in supplement form.

    I regularly take 10 tablets a day (more in hot weather) and I STILL don't hit my recommended daily amount, even with the potassium in my food.

    My own history of potassium deficiency is that I believe I was deficient for years. I hope it hasn't affected my long term heart health. When I started supplementing, I just took 1 tablet a day, or when symptoms appeared. Which was just enough to avoid the obvious symptoms. I now know better, and take significantly more - and consider it to be a wise investment in my long term (heart) health.
     
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  5. Sangre

    Sangre Type 2 · Member

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    I take a supplement called Magnifical that has no calcium. Just all the minerals required for your body to utilize the calcium in your diet to build new bone, including K1&2. My bone density has greatly improved in just six months of using it.
     
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  6. Oldvatr

    Oldvatr Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Interesting
    Several sites confirm the UK RDA as 3.500 mg/day. The description I have seen is that 98% of potassium is sequestered inside body cells, and that 80% of it is in muscles cells, and 20% in bone, liver and blood cells.
    One thing common with the sites I reviewed, is that the sources of potassium in the diet come from plant sources. There is no mention of meat or dairy which just has to be the best way of getting this mineral into the body, physically though not necessarily ethically.

    Does anyone have evidence that meat is not a good source for potassium in terms of biochemistry science?

    Edit to add an equally biassed report on red meat consumption in the UK that includes the nutrition data.
    http://beefandlamb.ahdb.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Red-meat-in-diet-update1.pdf
     
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    #26 Oldvatr, Jul 12, 2019 at 4:55 PM
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2019
  7. zand

    zand Type 2 · Expert

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    Haven't got the brainpower to read all of this thread right now, so if I am duplicating something, then sorry.

    Re potassium. It isn't just the levels that are important, there are ratios that matter too. So if you are deficient in one thing and supplement for that you may need to look at the other part of the ratio too.

    The sodium/potassium ration is the most important, life or death one. 2.5:1 is the ideal ratio..

    The sodium/ magnesium ratio is important too.

    Both of these ratios can be altered drastically when people start to eat healthily and stop eating processed food which has a lot of salt. It's why low carbers are often advised to have more salt. But it's more complicated than that.

    Anyhow, here's a link. There may be better ones out there.

    http://www.arltma.com/Articles/RatiosDoc.htm
     
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    #27 zand, Jul 12, 2019 at 5:02 PM
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2019
  8. bulkbiker

    bulkbiker Type 2 · Master

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    Just checked on the McCance and Widdowson tables
    Most meats have somewhere between 250 and 500 mg per 100g
    I would need to do some cutting and pasting if you want a detailed breakdown as they don't have a "meat and fish" category per se which makes it harder to filter.
     
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  9. bulkbiker

    bulkbiker Type 2 · Master

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    The winners appear to be turkey breast, hoki (some kind of fish), pork fillet and back bacon all have just over 500mg of K per 100g.
     
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  10. Brunneria

    Brunneria Other · Moderator
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  11. Mr_Pot

    Mr_Pot Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    I see from the chart that salt substitute which I assume is LoSalt or similar, is 2760mg per teaspoon, so 2 teaspoons exceeds the daily requirement, if that is what anybody wants. Personally I'll just stick to a varied diet.
     
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  12. Oldvatr

    Oldvatr Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Again, most of the sources listed are non meat, even in the dairy section. The table that has some meats in it omits lamb, duck, goat, rabbit, pheasant, goose, quail, shellfish, herring, kipper, mackerel, sardine all of which are viable fare for a meat eater. It omits pigs liver that is a significant organ meat source. kidneys are high in potassium too,
     
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  13. bulkbiker

    bulkbiker Type 2 · Master

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    Kidneys are 200-300 mg per 100g according to McCance and Widdowson..
    Liver 250-350 mg per 100g depending on variety
     
  14. ickihun

    ickihun Type 2 · Master

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    What's wrong with the common banana?
     
  15. Oldvatr

    Oldvatr Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    I assume we are still locked into discussing potassium. Banana has a higher carb count than meat, so is not as suitable for T2D on orals, or following a ketogenic diet, Also the Fructose in the fruit is possibly associated with being involved with Insulin Resistance and NAFLD, Ripe bananas also have a high sucrose content. However, a banana is cheaper. But it has a high environment impact due to transport costs compared to meat which is often locally sourced. You also have to eat a lot of bananas a day to meet your RDA and meat is a more compact source of potassium
     
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  16. Dr Snoddy

    Dr Snoddy Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Good point. However, Mr Pot definitely had it covered with potassium chloride, available as LoSalt. Covers any concerns about reducing sodium and increasing potassium intake!
     
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  17. Oldvatr

    Oldvatr Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Not universally safe for all:
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1124926/
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3692158/
    https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/6-dangers-of-sodium-restriction

    I am contraindicated on my heart medication and my antiplatelet med. Anyone suffering chronic heart failurem is also at risk

    Please do a quick google check before endorsing any supplement product regardless of what My Supermarket says,

    As Mr Pot states it seems two teaspoons or possibly one heaped teaspoon can exceed the RDA, so this source is almost overkill, Use with caution and GP advice.
     
  18. Brunneria

    Brunneria Other · Moderator
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    Posts have been deleted as they breach the rules. Please be on-topic, polite and tolerant of other's choices. Further Mod intervention could lead to thread bans, warnings or other sanctions.

    If you see a post that breaches our rules, please report it immediately.
     
  19. Oldvatr

    Oldvatr Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    It seems OP's are not allowed to affect the thread direction of their own thread now.
     
  20. Brunneria

    Brunneria Other · Moderator
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    @Oldvatr, you have been on this forum long enough to know that once the OP has been posted, then all members are equal, and equally subject to the forum rules.
     
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