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Newcastle diet starting Monday, done it once who gonna join me on my journey??

Hi Telandy

I travel on the train and have developed a method for opening the shakes. I lift the foil lid just a little on one side - and stab a small hole on the opposite side to let the air in. It has become a ritual . I don't like the soups - except the ones I make myself - but wouldn't consider using these on the move. I do use the Slimfast bars - especially when I am away for work. They are car friendly.

But you probably also need a lot of energy to stay awake. Coffee is also my friend.

Post ND I seem to be doing ok. After a little weight regain, I have been able to keep my weight stable - but it is early days. I have not introduced a lot of carb, but I am noticing that I am sneaking in a few bits and pieces. Last night I had some cognac and a little chocolate. this morning my fasting bloods were 6.8 and weight exactly the same as yesterday.

I still think I need a structure. I know I cant do the ND again - for a while at least - but I am going to have a fasting day today. I'll also have another read of the legend who is Dr Fung - and I'll also take another look at the 5:2. I have been on the LCHF but not lost anything and am finding it quite bland. I love meat of course - but the LCHF gives you an uncomfortable feeling of satiation.
 
@Living-by-the-beach, as you have put this question to me specifically, I am believing you want my opinion. I am not sure you will like my opinion, but you did ask.
I wonder if your doctor thought the Taylor research counted for nought for everyone, or if just for people, like you, for whom losing more weight when already slim, could be detrimental to your health? There is more to T2 diabetes than just being fat. If the beta cells in your pancreas are dead or diminished then no amount of starvation will revive them.
The attitude that if you get thin enough you will reverse T2 is wrong, and striving to achieve that if you are underweight can cause all sorts of irreversible damage. Your high BG readings will not be due to visceral fat if there is no visceral fat. I know many of us do not like the dietary advice of some HCPs, you know, the standard low fat high carb diet, but in a case where a doctor has considered all the details of an individual patient, and advised ND is not for them their advice should be heeded. I think in particular of some post menopausal women, who have bone density loss. They are at risk of hip fracture, which can be fatal.

Comments have been made in this thread that are so derogatory to people who are fat. I, as someone who is still fat, am not offended by them. I am offended by the attitude that some posters have that people 'allow' themselves to get fat. Or that they should have stopped themslves becoming so fat. Just because some people are able to control weight gain, they think everyone can. for some it is more complicated. I think previous posters have said it better than I could, but I would add, let those of us who have managed to control BG, or lose weight, have some compassion for those still struggling.
 
Excellent points made @Indy51
I think some posters forget that prof Taylor mentioned 'personal fat threshold'. Some may never reach that. I seem to be fortunate, though still fat, to have gone below that. Sadly, some will not no matter who fast or how much weight is lost.
 
In addition to my last post would add that some people do not follow the protocol set out by the Newcastle Taylor team, yet still claim they are doing Newcastle diet.
 

In your last sentence, are you saying you don't like to feel satisfied at the end of a meal? I can understand not wanting to feel stuffed, but only eating until you're merely "a little hungry" is probably problematic, longer term.
 
HI Pip and Indy51

Diabetes UK are funding an extension of the original Prof T work - (https://www.diabetes.org.uk/Researc...cotland/The-DiRECT-route-to-Type-2-remission/) based on the knowledge that 'dramatic weight loss...can put Type 2 into remission for up to 80% of patients.' This relates to Surgical outcomes in particular, but it does also state that on an 800 cals a day diet 'Within seven days, levels of fat in.... livers had decreased sharply'. Which is why this study is being funded.

This clinical trial is looking to involve the GP community in this broad idea. Patients aged between 20 - 65 with a diagnosis of less than 6 years are included in the study. Long term remission is the goal.

So - it is not for 100% of T2's - only 80%. But it may not need to be for long periods as we now know - and positive results are achievable in just 7 days. (This is not an argument for over-weight or under-weight people to give this a go.) It relies on dramatic weigh loss and sharp decreases in liver fat. And yes - this relates to our personal fat thresholds. And of course should be medically supervised......but this study promises to change the way T2 is treated by GP's....with any luck!
 
The Newcastle Diet study only took people who had been diagnosed 4 years or less.
If, this time, they are selecting from 6 yrs diagnosis, or less, they will still exclude the majority.

Also, any sane medical professional would weed out anyone with other medical issues - which could skew the results. And since diabetes is often alongside a number of auto immune diseases (I have 3), there will be a LOT of exclusions.

They will be selecting from a much smaller pool than 80%.

Besides. I think you may have misunderstood. The 80% does not refer to the number of people suitable for the ND. It refers to the number who benefit following 8 weeks following Dr Taylor's protocol.
 
AndBreathe said:
In your last sentence, are you saying you don't like to feel satisfied at the end of a meal? I can understand not wanting to feel stuffed, but only eating until you're merely "a little hungry" is probably problematic, longer term.
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Hi AB

What I mean by this is that after eating a HF meal, I feel uncomfortable. What I think I am doing is triggering too much of the hormone that is satiating my appetite. It may be I'm eating too quickly, or too much (both possibilities). This also relates to my point about finding the right framework. Today - for instance - I am fasting. It is a different sort of discomfort - but more agreeable than the feeling of being too full. However, I want to find something that is sustainable - neither fasting nor HFLC is sustainable for me.

Which is why I'm interested in what others are doing. Long term weight maintenance is my goal - so it has to be a sustainable approach that I take. Simply calculating what I eat just wont do it for me.
 

So, how do you envisage things looking? What are your objectives? To eat freely? Eat more carbs, or what?

When you increased your fats, how did you do it? Did you just start eating that way, or build up to it over a period of time? In my view, and significant change to eating patterns; whether it be increased fat, hiked up vegetables or giving up sugar in tea will be uncomfortable for a few days if a binary switch is used.

But, one thing I will say is that living hungry isn't sustainable, and far more likely to lead to a spectacular falling from the dietary wagon from a great height into a carb-fest of whatever your previous carbs of choice were.

I would actually be fascinated to know how many people have undergone the ND, then reversed their weight loss, back to, or close to their starting. That's not because I am critical of them, but I think it would be fascinating to understand exactly what is was they found very difficult. Almost anyone can sustain almost anything for a period of 8 weeks, but the critical period is moving forward, as you are finding.
 
Thanks @Steve50 I was aware of the latest research by prof Taylor's team as I have a great interest in his work, for obvious reasons.
As Brunneria states it will not benefit 80% of T2s, but has potential to benefit 80% of T2s who are in the categories deemed suitable. A subtle but important difference.
Having undertaken the ND in 2011, following my own reading of research, then fully discussing with GP I was prepared to give it a try. If I had applied to participate in the Newcastle research programme at that time I would not have been eligible, as I had been 6+ years T2 and only anyone T2 less than 4 years was considered. Similarly, there will be such exclusions from the current study of people T2 for +6 years. It is very promising research, but rightly needs to be replicated and evaluated, possibly changes made before becoming mainstream. I do believe it offers hope, particularly for those newly diagnosed. It also can offer false hope for those believing it will work for everyone. In the meantime, GPs dare not recommend it, until there is empirical evidence to show it is suitable. those individuals who, like ourselves, discover it for themselves, should discuss it with their HCPs. There may be reasons why they should not follow the ND. We all have different circumstances. I do think it is folly for someone to take it upon themselves (and I don't mean you Steve) to adapt the protocol, or to push it to others as a solution for all. By doing that we would set it up for failure and perpetuate the opinion of some that it is a fad diet.
 
Hi Brunneria

Indy51 said '...exactly where did Professor Taylor guarantee that 100% of people who follow the protocol will get remission?'. The proposal is based on the premise that of those who took part in the study - it worked for 80%. I don't know what the selection process for the study is - so not sure what you mean by '...selecting from a much smaller pool than 80%.'

To be clear - the 80% I refer to is the percentage of success for those who took part in the study - not the percentage of people suitable for the study.

So what I meant by 'So - it is not for 100% of T2's - only 80%.' - I meant that success is only predicted in 80%.

I don't know the percentage of people who are not suitable to start such a program - if any. The study does not make mention of exclusion criteria. I appreciate that co-morbidities may be an issue - but I have recently completed some research where the patients in the trial had multiple co-morbidities and this did not exclude them. I would have to read more about the recruitment process before I can agree with your point.
 

This is why we need to have a discussion thread about post ND eating.
I too found LCHF difficult until I realised that I was taking High Fat too literally. With enough full fat it is different. No need to overload, just find a comfortable level.
Also, the amount and volume of food after the restriction of ND can take some getting used to. Remember, Taylor recommends eating less volume than pre ND. takes some getting used to. I do find that carb reduction makes me feel better.

Also, if you are eating too much fat, could it be your gallbladder does not like it?
 
Hi AB

Thanks for your interest. My objective is to maintain weight loss over time (and if possible lose a little more!) I have not considered if this means counting carbs.....what I am looking for is a sustainable structure, a framework, an achievable life-style.

What I do know is that I cant go back to eating (and in my case also drinking) the way I did.

When I moved across to the HFLC, I did it by introducing protein into meals, gradually. I still refrain from bread, rice, sugar, potatoes etc....I have now stopped drinking any alcohol - except for entertaining - so I may go for 2 weeks or so without a drink. I also stay away from bread, chips, carbs etc...... I weigh myself each day and try and maintain a weekly average below my target weight (it is creeping up a little).

But I know my own personality type and I know I need to objectify this. I spent 27 years in the navy and was quite happy to put on a uniform every day. What I had difficulty with when I left was choosing what to wear. I would like a clear framework for eating that provides the same clarity - for me - as in deciding what to wear (if that analogy makes any sense at all )
 
Hi Pip

This is presuming I have a gallbladder - cholecystectomy 1984 - back in the days when they opened you up like a kipper!
 
When I was travelling last week I did take a shaker with me, which could be filled up with water. My life is pretty hectic, I guess everyone will say the same, but I take about 40 flights per year which messes your routine up, I have to leave home at 5am tomorrow to go to Budapest. Living in Switzerland we don't really have any fat people, a couple of reasons could be the genes from neighboring countries, namely France and Italy, but we still have military service, so the whole country is geared up with village sports clubs which keep the whole population fit. Kids are encouranged to go at the age of three and I am not 100% sure but every man has to do military service every year for a couple of weeks up to the age of 42 or 45. My children were astounded when they returned to the UK at the number of fat people, they just couldn't get their head around it. Pizza Hut and KFC tried to enter Switzerland and they had to close due to lack of interest. Even a McDonalds (may be once a year if needs must) is a special treat since meat costs a lot here, 30 pounds doesn't buy you a lot. Ready meals have come in but you really have to know where to go to find a slim shake formular, they are just not available in most supermarkets, since there is no need. I found this statistic http://www.idf.org/atlasmap/atlasmap?indicator=i1&date=2014 which surprisingly puts the UK in the low area.

I cannot get my head around that although most people in Switzerland are fit many do still smoke. Meat is expensive here and seen as a luxory so it may be on the meal agenda at home once or twice a week max, Generally slim diet type foods are available but along with the full fat versions, Switzerland haven't gone diet mad, full fat butter, full fat cream and real milk.
 
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Right. I have been opened up that way too, several times, and with no gallbladder find fats difficult to digest it take in too much.

If the benefit of my experience post ND helps I will feel as if I am not a complete pariah on this thread. Although I do still think a post-ND thread a good idea.

I first tried to slowly introduce carbs. Then when weight started to creep, though interestingly BG didn't tried LCHF. Having been directed to the diet doctor site I made the mistake of not reading and researching enough and launched into consuming until I felt full,
Such things as bulletproof coffee, cream, cheese, fat bombs etc. snag I didn't feel full, (spinal nerve damage in an accident, and internal nerve damage from multiple abdominal surgeries apparently). The trouble for me with high fat foods is that they do not have the same 'hangover' effect that carbs do. Also the volume of fat and no gallbladder often means that the fat has the undesirable effect on digestion requiring far too many dashes to the lavatory. Not all the calories were eliminated in this way though, and off course excess calories mean weight gain. That said, once I found the way to eat the correct balance of fats I have maintained the same weight for over a year, albeit a too heavy weight.

The secret is to find the correct balance of full fat food that will not push up weight, and to keep checking the meter and scales. We have been for too long been led to believe that fat is the enemy. It is hard to change that minset. Hope you can find the right balance. ND is the start of BG control, sadly some think of it as a one off fix.
 

Actually, I would have thought if you like structure, you would find the transition easier, perhaps.

Why not turn it into a "project", with project plan, objectives and milestones. But whatever structure you decide upon, surely it has to have sufficient flexibility to cope when Plan A can't occur, perhaps even due to factors outside your control. Have you eaten out since you came off ND? If so, how did you cope with the menu and options open to you?

My breakfast is pretty routine, in that I often have the same, or a largely similar breakfast most days, but the rest of my meals are planned in week tranches, but certainly not the same every day or even every 7 days.

You state you couldn't eat (or drink) as you did before. Well, I don't know that many do to be honest. The likes of @Andrew Colvin who have gone back to a truly "normal" diet are few and far between, but that's just my feeling. I have no documented evidence of this. I did, however, enquire about maintenance regimes for the literal ND-ers, and the feedback I received was that that element comes down to personal preference, but low carb was (is?) a popular method, due to it's most fundamental impact on blood sugars.

I guess it's up to you if you feel you could live forever fasting for a couple of days a week, or eating nothing after x o'clock with nothing until morning, but it wouldn't be for me. My own approach of planning 7 days meals at a time works for me. If I end up being out, unexpectedly for an evening, then I just have a planned meal left over to roll over into the beginning of the following 7-day cycle. By saying I plan 7 days at a time, I don't mean I plan to the granularity that Monday = x, Tuesday=y and so on. It means I shop to eat for the following week. What is eaten on any given day can be swapped around within that 7 days.

So far, I have very, very rarely felt I am missing out on anything, and on those few ocassions, it will have been an dinner parties, at friends, where I'll pass on the sweet, then be at a bit of a loose end whilst everyone else is eating and saying how divine it is. But, that's transitory.
 
I have clearly touched on an extremely raw nerve for some folks who participate here. That is not my intention to inflame any person's feelings.
I have a link here from Harvard University http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2012/03/the-big-setup/

"The work, by Walter Willett, the Harvard School of Public Health’s (HSPH) Stare Professor of Epidemiology and Nutrition, and by his colleagues showed that being even slightly overweight increased diabetes risk five times, and being seriously obese increased it 60 times. The study’s authors had to push just to get the results in print.

"Studies have shown that becoming overweight is a major risk factor in developing type 2 diabetes. Today, roughly 30 percent of overweight people have the disease, and 85 percent of diabetics are overweight.""

My BMI at my worst level was 30.7. That was clinically obese. Thus I was 60 times more at risk of becoming T2 with my former BMI. I had consulted with 5 physicians over the 4 years prior to my diagnosis and not one mentioned T2DM. Now that my BMI is in the normal range 16 months later I am struggling to get in front of my T2DM. Any parent would not want to see their child (or any other child) to suffer from T2D. Sharing knowledge is just that sharing & having a genuine interest in helping people. If my intent has been misconstrued by that father (or anyone on this forum) it was a function of delivery and not of the content. It is the content of diabetes that is deadly & neither Harvard University (or I) as messengers of the content that should ever feel threatened.

For anyone who has felt slighted by me in the past please accept this as an unreserved apology.
 

I don't think one person on here in particular would dispute that carrying excess weight is a good thing for a number of troublesome conditions, including, but not exclusively diabetes.

In the US, anyone watching TV will see advertising for diabetes drugs and protocols all the time. So, I am assuming this young woman, and her father, will have seen at least some of the content I have. To be clear, where I struggle is is why you chose to say something at that time, in that circumstance, and to an extent why saying it to her was apparently abhorent, but saying it to her father was just fine. I doubt you walk up and down the street sporting a sandwich board with the same messages every day, so something must have precipitated it.

Whilst some overweight people are happy enough with their lot, I would state my feelings are that the vast majority would rather be slim, or at least within the healthy BMI range. If you were overweight prior to diagnosis, had you every tried to lose weight? It strikes me that some men are comfortable to carry some weight, but few women are. If losing and maintaining weight was simple there would be far, far fewer overweight people around.

And just to finish up. Did you ever consider this young girl could have an eating disorder, or another medical condition impacting on her weight and may be fighting her own battle and demons? Ask anyone who has taken systemic steroids for any length if time how "easy" it is to lose or even maintain a healthy weight.

I sincerely hope that as you move forward you find a suitable and sustainable eating regime because I can't imagine your inner messaging processes if your weight went up.
 
HI LBB

This is a particularly sensitive issue - as you say. I have found myself 'observing' others - I've even mentioned this in this thread.

As an exercise, next time you get a chance, sit down in a food court or somewhere where there are a range of food outlets - and notice the relative size of the customer in relation to what is being sold. It can be both amusing and educational. You may have already done this.

However, I would never argue for or against the availability of the food - or say anything to or about those who make the choices.

We do have to take responsibility for our own choices.

What I would like to see though is more people making the kind of choices that would encourage the outlets to meet that demand. Supermarkets now have a sugar free section - that has only come about by demand. From what I understand, vast amounts of sugar can be reduced from the products we buy - if there was a demand for producers to do so. We need to create that demand and use education to change minds.
 
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