NICE suspend Dr Unwin’s infographics ?

[Jaylee]

Those look like somewhat green (ie unripe) bananas to me which (surprise, surprise) have less sugar content than ripe ones.

I wouldn't disagree. They are "eye catching" on the sales front yellow. & ready to go. (Still "green on the inside?)
Not quite on the "turn" yet!? I realy haven't done a nanna in a V long time.. Sort of like solid lactose for my metabolism? (& my meds.)

Lol, I also did a stint in food retail...

 

[pdmjoker]

Story in full here without having to go to DM site!

Quote with [] annotations by me:

Dr Unwin says the low-carb approach to type 2 diabetes treatment is evidence based and was the main method used before effective drugs were invented.

While agreeing it is true, diabetes control before drugs did rely on avoiding carbs, Prof Frost makes the point that: ‘Patients’ quality of life was horrendous. They suffered ill health, and died rapidly.’ [T1 perchance?] By far the biggest cause of death in diabetics, today, is heart disease, he adds: ‘To avoid heart disease, being a healthy weight and having a diet that’s lower in saturated fat is best, not low-carb but high fat.’ [poor nutritional knowledge]

Professor Partha Kar, NHS England’s chief diabetes expert, argues that the only scientifically proven way to get type 2 diabetes under control, with diet, is to shed excess pounds: ‘The evidence, as far as trials go, sits with low calorie diets,’ he said. [won't shed pounds since insulin is high. Low Carb improves IR and helps weight loss]

Dr Unwin’s patients undoubtedly lost weight. This will be, Prof Kar says, because they were consuming fewer calories than they burned – not specifically because they’d cut out carbs. And it’s because they lost weight that their type 2 diabetes went into remission. [nope]

‘Some low-carb evangelists say it’s all about sugar, but this isn’t backed up by science,’ he adds. [I think it's all about blood-sugar, not sugar!!!]

While people on low-carb diets can shift weight fast and reduce blood sugar, the benefits rarely last after 12 months [not if you go back to eating carbs, no! ]

So does sugar become a poison to type 2 diabetics? ‘That’s not supported by the evidence,’ answers Prof Kar. [WHAT!? Unless he was using "poison" in the technical sense!]

All the professors agree that low-carb diets show no long-term advantage over other weight-loss methods. [the studies they saw were prob not Low Carb but lower carb calorie restriction]​

----
Such ignorance on display by the "experts" is unbelievable. It's like that meme "There's no good evidence to support Low Carb = I've never seen any good studies and I'm going to make sure I never do!"

As if Low Fat diets have a good track record! (2-year failure rate is >98%)

How silly of me: OBVIOUSLY the NHS is being effective at controlling rates of obesity and T2D with Low Fat!!!! Way to go!!! NHS will be bankrupt by T2D alone in 25 years if current rates continue. Suggest they sack Prof Kar and get someone who is being effective at getting the job done...

Bizarre! Utterly bizarre!

 

[bulkbiker]

Story in full here without having to go to DM site!

Quote with [] annotations by me:

Dr Unwin says the low-carb approach to type 2 diabetes treatment is evidence based and was the main method used before effective drugs were invented.

While agreeing it is true, diabetes control before drugs did rely on avoiding carbs, Prof Frost makes the point that: ‘Patients’ quality of life was horrendous. They suffered ill health, and died rapidly.’ [T1 perchance?] By far the biggest cause of death in diabetics, today, is heart disease, he adds: ‘To avoid heart disease, being a healthy weight and having a diet that’s lower in saturated fat is best, not low-carb but high fat.’ [poor nutritional knowledge]

Professor Partha Kar, NHS England’s chief diabetes expert, argues that the only scientifically proven way to get type 2 diabetes under control, with diet, is to shed excess pounds: ‘The evidence, as far as trials go, sits with low calorie diets,’ he said. [won't shed pounds since insulin is high. Low Carb improves IR and helps weight loss]

Dr Unwin’s patients undoubtedly lost weight. This will be, Prof Kar says, because they were consuming fewer calories than they burned – not specifically because they’d cut out carbs. And it’s because they lost weight that their type 2 diabetes went into remission. [nope]

‘Some low-carb evangelists say it’s all about sugar, but this isn’t backed up by science,’ he adds. [I think it's all about blood-sugar, not sugar!!!]

While people on low-carb diets can shift weight fast and reduce blood sugar, the benefits rarely last after 12 months [not if you go back to eating carbs, no! ]

So does sugar become a poison to type 2 diabetics? ‘That’s not supported by the evidence,’ answers Prof Kar. [WHAT!? Unless he was using "poison" in the technical sense!]

All the professors agree that low-carb diets show no long-term advantage over other weight-loss methods. [the studies they saw were prob not Low Carb but lower carb calorie restriction]​

----
Such ignorance on display by the "experts" is unbelievable. It's like that meme "There's no good evidence to support Low Carb = I've never seen any good studies and I'm going to make sure I never do!"

As if Low Fat diets have a good track record! (2-year failure rate is >98%)

How silly of me: OBVIOUSLY the NHS is being effective at controlling rates of obesity and T2D with Low Fat!!!! Way to go!!! NHS will be bankrupt by T2D alone in 25 years if current rates continue. Suggest they sack Prof Kar and get someone who is being effective at getting the job done...

Bizarre! Utterly bizarre!

Any "Diabetes Expert" that refers to "Diabetes" should immediately be ignored. I wasn't aware that Partha is such a CICO advocate... odd as his specialty is T1 where as anyone knows weight loss can occur without insulin however much you eat which is why weight loss is a key symptom for many.

 

[pdmjoker]

Any "Diabetes Expert" that refers to "Diabetes" should immediately be ignored.

Agreed!

anyone knows weight loss can occur without insulin however much you eat which is why weight loss is a key symptom for many

True, but where did he mention insulin? (puzzled).
---
PLEASE NOTE:

Professor Partha Kar, NHS England’s chief diabetes expert, argues that the only scientifically proven way to get type 2 diabetes under control, with diet, is to shed excess pounds: ‘The evidence, as far as trials go, sits with low calorie diets,’ he said.​

which contradicts info about 16 RCTs in Dr David Unwin's response on twitter. Aren't Randomized Controlled Trials considered scientific evidence anymore?

Edit to add: And shouldn't "NHS England’s chief diabetes expert" keep abreast of such things? Perhaps he is comparing 16 quality RCTs to a large number of dodgy "low carb" trials - ie: the "consensus"? Which is clearly always correct, unless you consider that before Galileo Galilei the overwhelming consensus was that the Sun went around the Earth...

 

[bulkbiker]

he mention insulin

He didn't but that he seems unaware that quite a lot of pre diagnosis T1's lose weight however much they eat might be an indicator that calorie consumption is not necessarily relevant to weight loss.. or at least you might hope that a T1 "expert" would know that.

This will be, Prof Kar says, because they were consuming fewer calories than they burned

Is not necessarily true

 

[pdmjoker]

He didn't but that he seems unaware that quite a lot of pre diagnosis T1's lose weight however much they eat might be an indicator that calorie consumption is not necessarily relevant to weight loss.. or at least you might hope that a T1 "expert" would know that.



Is not necessarily true

Now I understand - thank you! Me being slow!
Edit: Of course, CICO still works even in this case if you consider it isn't calories consumed but calories stored!

 

[AloeSvea]

Not being English/living in England, I read the article for its information, and not its response by NICE, the info was bad enough - bad in the sense I was appalled and horrified by the extent of the anti low carb propaganda of it. This was compounded by the fact I finally looked up what the acronym 'NICE' stands for. (Just a heads up - acronyms that are nation-specific are not meaning-self evident! Believe me.) I have normally just ignored the NICE refs as 'does not apply to me', ditto NHS. ...

...But the poster has said that it was about NICE's response to this ghastly article that was the point of this thread, so...

When I looked it up -

NICE | The National Institute for Health and Care Excellence

It makes the whole thing suspiciously look like a VERY orchestrated piece of food industry and nation's agriculture/horticulture supported propaganda - from the outside you understand. At least from all those ghastly professor's who were interviewed (poor British diabetics to have the likes of those advocating for you!) Or, if that is going too far - the writers and participants just don't know the effect of carby foods on those with diabetes, and, don't care, and, care more about their feeling great about eating bananas. I can understand that as I used to love bananas. And I ate a LOT of them in my pre-diagnosis life.

For me, the big error of the article was when they did their own banana BG test they left out those with diabetes (and yes the prediabetic friend just doesn't cut it in the sick fat cells stakes, as a person with very sick fat cells here...). In fact, the fact that Dr Unwin/his infographic was speaking to those particularly with type 2/diabetes - and for us, of course, sugar and carby foods DO operate like a poison on our screwed up metabolic systems. To say anything else just does the huge amount of the world's population who have screwed up metabolic systems an enormous disfavour, and when are journalists in the business of making a bad thing worse? (At least theoretically!). There was no counter-argument to the ghastly professors, as I know for a fact there are terrific journalists employed by this website/forum that would have been available for comment, media spokespeople etc. (And as already said - no common garden-variety type 2 person who low-carbs to keep their condition in check! Ditto type 1.)
Says Aloe who has never eaten another banana since thankfully going low-carb.

 

[HSSS]

It’s also majorly ironic that diabetes.org that object to the infographics with teaspoons of sugar use cubes of sugar in their carbs and calories endorsed book and other supported literature!!

https://www.carbsandcals.com/books/carb-calorie-counter
https://www.diabetes.org.uk/guide-t...ydrates-and-diabetes/how-to-cut-down-on-sugar

 

[pdmjoker]

It makes the whole thing suspiciously look like a VERY orchestrated piece of food industry and nation's agriculture/horticulture supported propaganda - from the outside you understand. At least from all those ghastly professor's who were interviewed (poor British diabetics to have the likes of those advocating for you!)

Valid observation, I think. Also, I gather Professor Partha Kar, NHS England’s "chief diabetes expert" who

argues that the only scientifically proven way to get type 2 diabetes under control, with diet, is to shed excess pounds: ‘The evidence, as far as trials go, sits with low calorie diets,’ he said.
​

gets £50k pa from drug companies. That money isn't intended to make him unbiased.

It’s also majorly ironic that diabetes.org that object to the infographics with sugar cubes use teaspoons of sugar in their carbs and calories endorsed book and other supported literature!!

The Unwin infographics are spoons of sugar, but point taken!

 

[pdmjoker]

A thought: Perhaps NICE aren't playing nice?

 

[HSSS]

The Unwin infographics are spoons of sugar, but point taken!

Oops wrong way round. Have amended my post. Ta.

 

[Oldvatr]

It’s also majorly ironic that diabetes.org that object to the infographics with teaspoons of sugar use cubes of sugar in their carbs and calories endorsed book and other supported literature!!

https://www.carbsandcals.com/books/carb-calorie-counter
https://www.diabetes.org.uk/guide-t...ydrates-and-diabetes/how-to-cut-down-on-sugar

This is because the DUK references to physical sugar attacks snack foods, so does not make the unconscious connection between carbs and sugar in normal foods like whole grains and potatoes. Everybody knows that fizzy drinks etc have added sugar, coz the UK gov said so when they announced the sugar tax. It is the possible minefield of having to add the tax to beloved starchy carby foods as well that frightened them. When you know that Tesco is one of the DUK corporate sponsorst, and that the Vegan Soc is also tied in with Tesco with the launch of that shop's venture into vegan snax, then it makes sense. I would say it is the golden goose / holy cow that makes them money, but then that would not be appropriate considering......But its a money spinner for sure especially with the Quorn tie in too.

To give it all scientific backing, the Vegan Soc and the British Nutritionist Foundation also amalgamated last year in a large financial shaking of press releases, and at the same time the Vegan Soc provided sugar -nificant funding to the Guardian Newspaper.

 

[pdmjoker]

DUK signed an agreement with the Vegan Soc to actively promote a vegan diet

Which could explain the DUK's half-hearted Low Carb stance. Vested interests strike again?

 

[zand]

The article advocates low cal diets. What it doesn't say is that these need willpower as you feel hungry on them. They are not sustainable long term and you can't keep cutting calories forever. Not so with low carb and they don't mention that at all.

 

[Oldvatr]

The only reason that would lead to the Infographics being withdrawn is that they are under question and therefore may be incorrect, The Article did run a very poor pseudo scientific experiment to demonstrate this effect, but the explanations used to justify the conclusions it drew are clearly subjected to conflict of interests, and /or unconscious bias. Had the study produced evidence of how Dr Unwin et al calculated the original data and had a question of methodology , or had actually introduced numeric errors then it should not have had the success it appears to have, As it is, it has shown that some vested interests seem ok with teaspoons of sugar being used to describe fizzy drinks, sweets, coffee, alcohol etc (i.e. real sugars) against those lurking hidden in everyday natural foods such as bread and potatoes. It is this easy to understand interpretation aimed at the ignorant public that has them changing their nether garments,

It is denial that carbs => glucose not the sugar => glucose message they don't want getting out. But Pandora;s Box is now open on that. When someone gives a simplified lesson that Sugar is poison, and also starch is poison that they want to suppress. This is why Low Carb is such an anathema for them - it drives a move away from Eatwell and all that it stands for. Too much corporate money tied up in that one.

 

[bulkbiker]

and that DUK signed an agreement with the Vegan Soc to actively promote a vegan diet

Are you sure about that and not confusing it with the BDA The association of UK dieticians? They have a memorandum of understanding with the Vegan Society although how they managed that is beyond me.

 

[Oldvatr]

Are you sure about that and not confusing it with the BDA The association of UK dieticians? They have a memorandum of understanding with the Vegan Society although how they managed that is beyond me.

Actually a double confusion. It was the ADA but not the Diabetes,org. but the American Dietetics Association. They have a 'position statement on their website home page to this effect, As you say, also the BDA have a similar agreement. DUK merely provides guidelines on their website and has a recipe section. I will amend my post

 

[Oldvatr]

Which could explain the DUK's half-hearted Low Carb stance. Vested interests strike again?

Correction - DUK merely promotes vegan and vegetarian diets as a suitable viable diet treatment, and provides supporting literature for it. It has no formal agreement that I can find.

 

[pdmjoker]

Story in full here without having to go to DM site!

Quote with [] annotations by me:

<snip>
Professor Partha Kar, NHS England’s chief diabetes expert, argues that the only scientifically proven way to get type 2 diabetes under control, with diet, is to shed excess pounds: ‘The evidence, as far as trials go, sits with low calorie diets,’ he said. [won't shed pounds since insulin is high. Low Carb improves IR and helps weight loss]

Dr Unwin’s patients undoubtedly lost weight. This will be, Prof Kar says, because they were consuming fewer calories than they burned – not specifically because they’d cut out carbs. And it’s because they lost weight that their type 2 diabetes went into remission. [nope]

‘Some low-carb evangelists say it’s all about sugar, but this isn’t backed up by science,’ he adds. [I think it's all about blood-sugar, not sugar!!!]

While people on low-carb diets can shift weight fast and reduce blood sugar, the benefits rarely last after 12 months [not if you go back to eating carbs, no! ]

So does sugar become a poison to type 2 diabetics? ‘That’s not supported by the evidence,’ answers Prof Kar. [WHAT!? Unless he was using "poison" in the technical sense!]

All the professors agree that low-carb diets show no long-term advantage over other weight-loss methods. [the studies they saw were prob not Low Carb but lower carb calorie restriction]​

----
<snip>

It looks like Prof Kar's comments received quite a reaction.

I don't condone any abuse he received, but patients being blamed by healthcare professionals when calorie-restriction doesn't work for them, is possibly the start of them having strong feelings about dietary matters. As he correctly says,

From my own reading of the subject, in my view, one diet isn't the answer to anything​

I just wish those advising calorie-restriction demonstrated that mindset.

When those patients who have been blamed for the failure of calorie-restriction discover the statistics for how poor the chances of success are for those with obesity or IR, and especially long-term success, feelings become more intense and particularly when they then encounter healthcare professionals who are closed-minded, dismissive and illogical about credible Low Carb evidence.

I haven't been able to verify this, but on that page Prof Kar suggests he was responsible ("in spite of all opposition") for the Low Carb Programme app appearing on the NHS approval list.

PS Please keep any replies civil!

 

[Oldvatr]

It looks like Prof Kar's comments received quite a reaction.

I don't condone any abuse he received, but patients being blamed by healthcare professionals when calorie-restriction doesn't work for them, is possibly the start of them having strong feelings about dietary matters. As he correctly says,

From my own reading of the subject, in my view, one diet isn't the answer to anything​

I just wish those advising calorie-restriction demonstrated that mindset.

When those patients who have been blamed for the failure of calorie-restriction discover the statistics for how poor the chances of success are for those with obesity or IR, and especially long-term success, feelings become more intense and particularly when they then encounter healthcare professionals who are closed-minded, dismissive and illogical about credible Low Carb evidence.

I haven't been able to verify this, but on that page Prof Kar suggests he was responsible ("in spite of all opposition") for the Low Carb Programme app appearing on the NHS approval list.

PS Please keep any replies civil!

Murmurings in the media today announce the forthcoming government initiative to reduce obesity and fight T2D. Boris is about to announce (apparently) the Better Health Campaign which is a 12 week govt sponsored diet plan based apparently on Low Calorie, Low Fat CICO principles. A new lease of life for Eatwell (#3?) being whole grain and starchy food based with lots of fruit and of healthy veg products, and greatly reduced meat and dairy.

In addition DUK (the other lot) has been tasked with launching an App that allows the general public establish their risk factor for T2 D and if scoring over the tickbox trigger, will qualify to self refer themselves onto the current NHS T2D education support course that they have been trialing for the last year.