No logic

Its trial and error really with food, at the start i was really afraid of what to eat but the diabetic nurse pointed out that i cant avoid going out for meals etc and need to start to get my life back to normal. Hope your levels come down and i know how you feel really miss sugary sweets and chocolate.

If it worries you a lot, you can always try protein (meat) and vegetables only for a day or two and see if that helps you.

It does help me - it's the atkins ish approach, I guess.

Pasties and muesli have grain in them. It is normally recommended to have those foods by most dieticians as they create a base - however, for me, I have found that if I want my diabetes closely controlled, which is my current aim, a very small handful of starch (taters, brown pasta/rice) at every meal is about all I can take in before seeing spikes. To that effect, I avoid milk and fruit juices too and only have things like that when I need a quick injection around my exercise.

You can always test and see.

At some point, btw, most type 2s will need insulin or at least a combination of meds to control blood glucose.

None of above is anything but my personal experience, so take it for what it is.

However, if you are that worried, try and kick out the grain stuff for a while, or try the brown pasta and rice as they have more fibres, which will at least delay the spike in BG you may otherwise get worried about.

Best of luck.

'At some point, btw, most type 2s will need insulin or at least a combination of meds to control blood glucose.' Where did you hear that Mileana?
Don't take that as a given its not true!! Eating as the NHS suggests will have you on insulin and meds, pigging out on the white stuff will. Taking control of your diabetes by eating good stuff will keep you healthy.
Stop the starchy stuff its made with flour, if you want sweet have strawberries and cream, or a bit of very dark chocolate.

Mileana said:

At some point, btw, most type 2s will need insulin or at least a combination of meds to control blood glucose.

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dawnmc said:

At some point, btw, most type 2s will need insulin or at least a combination of meds to control blood glucose.' Where did you hear that Mileana?
Don't take that as a given its not true!! Eating as the NHS suggests will have you on insulin and meds, pigging out on the white stuff will. Taking control of your diabetes by eating good stuff will keep you healthy.
Stop the starchy stuff its made with flour, if you want sweet have strawberries and cream, or a bit of very dark chocolate.

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+1 Dawn

Mileana, who told you this? To me this is just propaganda told to T2's to excuse the appalling dietary recommendations that are advised so routinely in this country. Unfortunately it may well be true for people who never get told the low carb diet route but if you are aware of that low carb route, and adopt it, it will allow you to have blood glucose levels at the same level as the vast majority of the non diabetic population. In that case why on earth would that progression to insulin be inevitable? You don't find the general non diabetic population with similar levels ending up all inevitably injecting insulin do you?

The bottom line is that the majority of T2's are never shown a route that allows them to get their levels back to safety where beta cell damage should cease and thus the progressive nature of T2 should effectively cease. It is only when people run their levels too high or have their pancreas killed off by turbo charging it with powerful insulin stimulating drugs that those insulin producing beta cells will die off further and inevitably lead to insulin.

I'm sorry, I seem to have upset people.

What I heard was, to be more precise, that with time, elevated sugar levels will contribute to killing beta cells, which slowly will render some/most people's insulin production (even more) unable to keep up with the needs.

I am aware that 'some' people if they start really early, or are really super devoted, or for that matter also just lucky - can revert their insulin resistance to some degree, control their blood sugar by diet and thus avoid all or some of this development.

However, I am not really in the mood to go into the whole non-carb discussion. I said 'most' type 2s, because most type 2s can't, won't or don't know to 'cut out the starch' or 'cut down a lot on starch'.

I told the man to test what starch does to him - I didn't tell him to continue eating starch so he can start up insulin real quick.

But hey.

It's not just sugar, Dave - you should be looking at "total carbohydrate". Sugar is a carbohydrate, and too much of any carbohydrate is bad for your blood glucose levels. I remember seeing somewhere that mashed potato will hit your blood glucose level faster than white sugar does. :shock:

Many of us on here eat low carbohydrate, using target figures from 150g or less per day, to below 25g per day. I aim for 25g to 30g but at the moment am probably nearer 50g per day. I need to drop lower again as I have a lot of weight to lose, but my blood glucose levels are usually within the target range for non-diabetics. I'm Type 2, on 3 x 500mg metformin daily.

I can now tolerate one or two slices of wholegrain bread in a day - but not more than twice a week. I can have a couple of new potatoes (in their skins) occasionally. I don't eat pasta or rice any more, but if I was going to I'd go for a very small quantity (maybe 2 tablespoons) of cooked wholemeal pasta or cooked brown Basmati rice.

Controlling your BG levels mainly by diet does mean rethinking your lifestyle, and I see you're making a lot of effort about that - well done! Have a look at Viv's Modified Atkins Diet which is a sticky thread on the Low-carb Diet Forum, to give you some ideas. It's mainly a weight loss diet, but works very well for blood glucose, blood pressure and cholesterol levels too.

It gives you an easy-to-follow list of allowable low-carb foods, and if you follow the quantities you'll be getting between 25g - 30g carbs per day. If you want more, add in Low GI carbs, mainly from veg and fruit, using a carb counter book; as you increase the carbs, lower your fat intake to keep a balance.

You'll find your craving for sweet things will gradually disappear as you get used to not eating them. Lower-carb fruits (eg berries, plums, apricots or a small apple are okay for me). If you need to sweeten things, use a sweetener (eg granulated Splenda) instead of sugar. I have a little dark chocolate (usually around 80% cocoa solids) as a treat.

I hope that's given you some ideas. Good luck!

Viv 8)

PS Thanks for the explanation, Mileana. I think what upset many people was the assumption that all Type 2's will eventually need insulin. Many of us have no intention of ever using insulin, as long as nothing unforseen happens to us. We try to run our BG levels as close to non-diabetic as possible. I agree that many people are never told how reducing carbs helps; and that many people would rather not take control of their diabetes, which is such a shame!

Mileana said:

I'm sorry, I seem to have upset people.

What I heard was, to be more precise, that with time, elevated sugar levels will contribute to killing beta cells, which slowly will render some/most people's insulin production (even more) unable to keep up with the needs.

I am aware that 'some' people if they start really early, or are really super devoted, or for that matter also just lucky - can revert their insulin resistance to some degree, control their blood sugar by diet and thus avoid all or some of this development.

However, I am not really in the mood to go into the whole non-carb discussion. I said 'most' type 2s, because most type 2s can't, won't or don't know to 'cut out the starch' or 'cut down a lot on starch'.

I told the man to test what starch does to him - I didn't tell him to continue eating starch so he can start up insulin real quick.

But hey.

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I note, Mileana, that you put a query after T2. It could be that the line that 'you will eventually be on insulin' is particularly used for people who don't fit the T2 profile but can still produce some insulin (ie suspected early stage LADA, MODY, or 'DKWYAE' ('Don't know what you are really' -- which seems to be my category), etc). I was given the insulin line after first diagnosis by my (Dutch) DN who was otherwise well-primed on things. Two years on I like to think she was wrong, and am fighting hard to use only minimal meds, but only time will tell if she's right.

I don't mean to upset anyone here.... but my experience is exactly that I wound up on insulin. Like everyone else I had no intention to wind up on insulin either. Whatever you do in your life with diabetes don't just assume you're immune from any progression... you don't want to slap yourself silly if you get to the point where you have progressed. You just do what you know works for you and you keep at it... you're on a journey. This is my experience... speaking from another point of view from where some peeps may be at. I've had type 2 for 14 years now, and I've been on insulin since beginning of 2010. I also have other health issues which perhaps come into play. Everyone is different. Always keep a positive attitude no matter what... that counts.

mep73 said:

I don't mean to upset anyone here.... but my experience is exactly that I wound up on insulin. Like everyone else I had no intention to wind up on insulin either. Whatever you do in your life with diabetes don't just assume you're immune from any progression... you don't want to slap yourself silly if you get to the point where you have progressed. You just do what you know works for you and you keep at it... you're on a journey. This is my experience... speaking from another point of view from where some peeps may be at. I've had type 2 for 14 years now, and I've been on insulin since beginning of 2010. I also have other health issues which perhaps come into play. Everyone is different. Always keep a positive attitude no matter what... that counts.

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I think you're right, none of us know what our future holds. What I can say with 1000% certainty is I will do everything in my power to stay away from insulin, it's the one thing, with my obsessive fear of complications that makes me work as hard as I do to control my BG. Just because I have excellent control now, I can't be sure what will happen later down the line.

One thing I do know, the Newcastle diet has given me fantastic control, and if my figures started to rise, I would immediately go back on the diet. Tomorrow marks the beginning of week 6, and I have had good days and bad, but the bad is a walk in the park compared to the terror and real anxiety I feel when I think of complications.

So, simply put, for me, I will fight my own body every step of the way to avoid more medication, and certainly insulin, it's a path that I just will not contemplate.

Right, I was a tad upset myself just then too. I have been trying to control this allegedly type 2 on around 50g Carb/Starch stuff a day and wound up with BG in the 30s from 'one day to the next'.

I don't find using insulin a 'failure'. I find that doing everything that is in my power to be 'on target', which for me is no higher than 6, really, to be the goal. If that means insulin, fair enough - at least for me.

Gluco-toxidity or what is it called is real, though.

I think we have sort of missed the fact that we're all after the same goal - blood glucose on target/as close to normal as at all possible for us. What I meant to say is after a while of failing to achieve this, many, even type 2s, will end up on insulin.

Yes, you are right, I am very much in doubt that I am a 'true' type 2, my insulin resistance and insulin needs are way too 'type 1' to make sense. I am trying to persuade docs to actually try and test it, but it's a bit of hard work.

English not being my first language may have contributed to the initial confusion - my apologies. I did not mean to say to anyone, lowcarbers or not, that you cannot control diabetes - for a while or forever - with diet. But it takes knowledge, work, luck and a few more things - and 'most' don't have the combination, probably.

For me, insulin is the best thing that has happened though - because it allows me to succeed and be on target. Apart from just now, post surgery :evil: :cry:

Mileana said:

Right, I was a tad upset myself just then too. I have been trying to control this allegedly type 2 on around 50g Carb/Starch stuff a day and wound up with BG in the 30s from 'one day to the next'.

I don't find using insulin a 'failure'. I find that doing everything that is in my power to be 'on target', which for me is no higher than 6, really, to be the goal. If that means insulin, fair enough - at least for me.

Gluco-toxidity or what is it called is real, though.

I think we have sort of missed the fact that we're all after the same goal - blood glucose on target/as close to normal as at all possible for us. What I meant to say is after a while of failing to achieve this, many, even type 2s, will end up on insulin.

Yes, you are right, I am very much in doubt that I am a 'true' type 2, my insulin resistance and insulin needs are way too 'type 1' to make sense. I am trying to persuade docs to actually try and test it, but it's a bit of hard work.

English not being my first language may have contributed to the initial confusion - my apologies. I did not mean to say to anyone, lowcarbers or not, that you cannot control diabetes - for a while or forever - with diet. But it takes knowledge, work, luck and a few more things - and 'most' don't have the combination, probably.

For me, insulin is the best thing that has happened though - because it allows me to succeed and be on target. Apart from just now, post surgery :evil: :cry:

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Mileana, you seem to be upset at those of us who don't want to go onto insulin, and I'm not sure why. Control is difficult, I doubt any of us would say different. We all have our own approach to how we do it, or try to do it. I am desperately intolerant to carbs, and have to ultra low carb to keep control, others manage more and still keep excellent control. I believe it's about working with what you have ie, what your body can tolerate and deal with, then plan around that. Some people, no matter how hard they work, still need insulin, there is no shame in that at all. For people here, it's in no way a sign of failure or anything else, but perhaps their pancreatic function is just so low, that even an ultra low carb diet won't work. There are some T2's here that are on diet alone, right the way through to a mixture of medication and insulin. It's all about what is the best path for us, as individuals with the help and support from our HCP (when they are in partnership with us, and not fighting against us).

If you are LADA then being on insulin is perhaps not all that surprising. You will have no pancreatic function at all. It's sad your HCP won't test, but how many times do we hear cost cutting before care? Perhaps a slightly more forceful approach might help, if you explain just how worried you are. Paul, a member here was diagnoses as a T2, he was then changed to LADA and life now much easier for him.

Just try to see, we do all treat our diabetes in the best way for us. Not wanting to go onto stronger medication or insulin is not a bad thing, just a choice some of us would prefer never to face, no matter how far into the future.

Fingers crossed you do get tested for LADA, so you can then get the right treatment for you.

+1 Great post Jo! Mileana I REALLY hope you can persuade your Doctors to test for GAD Antibodies and C-Peptide levels to give you some answers to what type of Diabetes you have as I know how frustrating it can be to low carb but then be rewarded with readings in the 20's and 30's,after my LADA diagnosis because I did still have some pancreatic function left,I am managing my levels with a combination of a very low carb diet and Victoza injections.I was given a rough estimate of between 1-5 years(God knows how they can guess like that!) before my pancreatic function gets to a level where I will need insulin injections but when that day comes,whenever it is,Insulin holds no fears for me and I won't see it as a failure and will carry on watching the Carbs so I can keep my insulin use down to a minimum.We are ALL different but we all have the same goal,good control and avoiding complications as best we can so we can hopefully live a long and happy life. :thumbup:

Hey, no I'm not upset at all that people would rather avoid insulin - I don't particularly want people on insulin.

I will gracefully move my backside out of this discussion though - what we are currently discussing has little to do with OP's worries and I suggest if we want to continue the discussion, we move it to somewhere more suitable.

-M

Mileana said:

Hey, no I'm not upset at all that people would rather avoid insulin - I don't particularly want people on insulin.

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If my time comes, then I'll embrace insulin with open arms. I only see it as a good thing.

Mileana said:

Hey, no I'm not upset at all that people would rather avoid insulin - I don't particularly want people on insulin.

I will gracefully move my backside out of this discussion though - what we are currently discussing has little to do with OP's worries and I suggest if we want to continue the discussion, we move it to somewhere more suitable.

-M

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No need to continue, I perhaps misunderstood you. I must also move my behind, I have things to do, and sitting here is not going to get them done.

We have gone off on a bit of a tangent, so apologies for that. Few threads stay completely on topic, so hope the OP doesn't mind our discussion to much.

borofergie said:

Mileana said:

Hey, no I'm not upset at all that people would rather avoid insulin - I don't particularly want people on insulin.

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If my time comes, then I'll embrace insulin with open arms. I only see it as a good thing.

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Yes I've had that conversation with my GP. It went something like.

Me: I'm doing this low carb thing to keep my levels as a non diabetic. You ok with that?

Doc: Yes no problem in fact I have a friend who does the same as you so do what you need to do to keep your db in remission but be aware at some point your levels may begin to rise. Might be next year, might be twenty years...

Me: Well if they do that I'll be back to go straight on insulin as I don't see any point in speeding up my pancs decline with glic.

Doc: Wish all my diabetics had the same attitude just let me put you on Januvia for a bit first and I'll be happy.

Me: Ok seems sensible.

Dave
the pastry and Museli would be responsible for the high blood glucose. Starch increases blood glucose MUCH MORE than sugar does. If the cheese pastry didn't do it yesterday, maybe there was more fat in the bit you ate. Fat slows the absorption of carbs.
i would ditch the breakfast cereals and eat eggs or cheese or cold meat for breakfast. It only takes about 1 minute to scramble an egg in the microwave.
Hana

hanadr said:

Dave
Starch increases blood glucose MUCH MORE than sugar
Hana

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Is Starch is a complex carb and sugar is a simple carb, can't work out how the starch is supposed to increase blood glucse more than Sugar!

Theory they both have the same impact on the blood glucose levels, but it doesn't quite work like this, because the body has to break down the starchy carb into a simple carb before it hits the blood glucose you find that the blood sugars don't rise quite so much, due to the body burning off energy as it breaks down the complex carbs into single carbs... Sugar however being a simple carb already hits the blood stream super fast shooting it up quicker than the body has the chance to use any of it as energy!