Non diabetic blood sugar levels

Sounds about right PP to the figure I seen quoted elsewhere, which makes one wonder why some diabetics try to reduce their hba1c into what they call 'non-diabetic fours' , surely as diabetics staying in the lower/middle 5's is more realistic depending upon the type and treatment of your diabetes.

Nigel

We have usually linked to other websites for this information when it was asked about. Fasting levels are obviously at the lower end of the scale. Either that or just referred people to this websites own Community Page information as here:

http://www.diabetes.co.uk/diabetes_care ... ucose.html

Ken

Stress contributes to many health problems, and I feel that so long as my fasting levels stay below 6.0, I am happy. I don't intend to worry just because others can get it lower by eating unsustainable, and ultimately unheatlhy diets.

I know others compete to have the lowest HbA1cs etc - but somewhere within the acceptable range for T2s is fine by me.

My usual fasting level is around 5.5, and my last Hb test was 5.9.

I eat a low GL diet - initially for weight loss, and now for maintenance, but most days I have a some dark chocolate after dinner - and if I feel hungry, I have a biscuit or other snack between meals.

I eat everthing I ever did - but the "naughty stuff" only as an occasional treat, and then only in small portions. No forbidden food.

I feel strongly that diabetics' mental health is important too, and not stressing over every morsel of food certainly helps me.

Romola said:

....... eating unsustainable, and ultimately unheatlhy diets.

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There is no good research evidence that low carb is more unsustainable than any other diet. The sustainability of all types of diets in research trials is not good.
Nor is there evidence that LC is unhealthy in the long run. The longest trial I've seen was only 2 years, and the LC group were fine at that stage. There is no long term evidence of healthiness for low fat diets either. The only evidence I know is of traditional populations who remained healthy on a wide range of diets, including LC and low GI.

As for stress, I can't see why a LC diet would be more or less stressful than low GI/GL. You eat meat, veg and potato--I eat meat and veg. You eat cheese, salad and bread-- I eat cheese and salad. I don't find it stressful.

But you have to remember that kidneys are put under stress in a high protein diet. Also many T2s don't metabolise fat normally.

For this reason, unless you know otherwise for yourself (not including others) a carb free diet is not a good idea. A restricted or low GL diet is another matter altogher, as it is possible to eat a balanced diet.

The trouble with T2 is that it is not just about glucose.

Romola said:

....... a carb free diet is not a good idea.

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I am inclined to think that it would be impossible to have a 'carb free diet' as most items contain some carbs - unless you are thinking of an exclusively protein diet :?: :?

I've not seen anyone on these forums suggesting a carb free diet. Low carb diets yes, but not none at all.

In Romola's defence.

IMHO don't think that Romola is suggesting that anyone here has a carb free diet. She is suggesting that what some see as major decisions regarding whether to have one slice of carrot or two, (merely an example) does not address the whole problem regarding the management of diabetes. Some extreme low carbers, 20 per day, are even limited to the amount of veggies and fruit that they eat and some do seem to eat excessive amounts of protein and fat compared to what others see as healthy. Mental health, exercise and day to day living are also factors that need to be taken into consideration. If you are going to stress about acceptable foods day in and day out then you are going to defeat the object because your stress levels will rise and push your blood sugars up.
A holistic approach explained here,

http://www.diabetes.co.uk/news/2005/Oct ... tment.html

This study:

http://www.diabetes-symposium.org/index ... t=4&id=322

Is the most rigorous, yet easily understandable, I've seen to nail down what 'normal, non-diabetic' levels are.

It's worth watching and listening all the way through, I've made the 'normal, daily life' graph my target to aim for, with reasonable success - I stay pretty much on the middle line except that my fasting is a tad above the norm, yet my PPs are a tad below. Even then, if I add an *extra* 30 mins exercise of an evening, I can correct that - but to adjust that average by a mere 0.2 seems a bit over the top.

When I *do* run that extra exercise regime for a couple of months, it does push my A1c down from an average of 5.1 to 4.7, but again, I'm not sure there is any real value in that.

We are obviously all different, but I think more of my BG control is down to weightloss and exercise, rather than weightloss and diet. While I had to be pretty strict with diet to lose the 40% of my weight that was fat, I'm now a bit more relaxed about what I eat, so long as I keep up the exercise; two years on, my BG and weight seem pretty stable.

mark.

PickledPepper said:

So if I have a breakfast that puts me in the mid 8s at 45 mins, it's 'normal'. But if i am in the 8s at 2 hours, i imagine the peak at 45 mins would have been much higher.....likely double figures.

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Not necessarily so PP, it would all depend on the food you had eaten for your meal, i.e the gi-value, the fat content etc.

Nigel

My doctor tells me that any A1c below 6.0 is a non-diabetic level. He wants me to keep my A1c between 5.5 and 6.0. When I drop below 5.5 I have more than the usual number of hypos. My comfort level is 5.5-5.9.

Richard157 said:

My doctor tells me that any A1c below 6.0 is a non-diabetic level. He wants me to keep my A1c between 5.5 and 6.0. When I drop below 5.5 I have more than the usual number of hypos. My comfort level is 5.5-5.9.

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I assume you are taking medications that can cause hypos?

If not on meds, or only those than do not lead to hypos (Metformin, Glucobay - and maybe others) then I see no reason why one should not try to achieve the middle or lower range of 'non-diabetic' A1c values.

My Dr. certainly encourages me to do so - but then I'm not ony any meds now, except for occasional use of Glucobay (Acarbose, in the US, I think) if I eat a bigger - and more carb-heavy - meal than usual.

It's pretty much a quality of life issue; I can find more fun things to do with the *extra* 4 hours a week that I'd need to exercise to stay down at 4.7

I'm happy at 5.1, yes, I'd be happier still at 4.7 but there appears to be little further reduction of all-risk mortality once the A1c level falls much below 5. (this assumes that the A1c reflects an 'average' PP/FPG response, obviously, some low A1Cs can happen with high PP but very low fasting, and all-causes early mortality risk maps very closely with PP, rather than fasting)

Similarly, the graph showing risk of progression from pre-diabetes to diabetes over a five or ten year time frame shows a trivial rise in risk if your fasting glucose goes up from 4.5 to 5.2, yet there is a horrifying rise in risk - ~5 times greater - if your fasting goes up to 5.5

When your fasting goes up to 6.1 or above, the risk of developing full diabetes in less than a decade becomes ~12 times greater than if your fasting is 5.2 or under.

Put more simply, ONE person in THREE with a fasting reading of 6.1 or higher will develop full diabetes within a decade.

When you consider the correlation between FPG and A1c, you'll easily see why, as a prediabetic, I am very keen indeed on keeping my A1c at around 5 or lower.

Once again, my approach is almost certainly *not* the right one for anyone on insulin or other hypo-inducing meds!

Markd

Romola said:

But you have to remember that kidneys are put under stress in a high protein diet. Also many T2s don't metabolise fat normally.

For this reason, unless you know otherwise for yourself (not including others) a carb free diet is not a good idea. A restricted or low GL diet is another matter altogher, as it is possible to eat a balanced diet.

The trouble with T2 is that it is not just about glucose.

Click to expand...

I followed the DUK "starchy carb diet" for 8 years from diagnosis, when crippling muscle pain caused me to find this forum, & I drastically reduced my carb consumption. I increased protein, fats & vegetables. My mobility is completely restored.

Kidney function test results are available for 5 years.
GFR has been around 64 for the whole of that time, indicating a slightly impaired but stable kidney function. The change of diet has had no adverse effect.

Romola said:

But you have to remember that kidneys are put under stress in a high protein diet.

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It has not been shown that eating a diet high in protein is damaging to kidneys, only that it may be to those with established kidney disease. Anyway, there's no need to eat anything more than normal levels of protein. The trade off is carbs with fat, not protein. Annika Dahlqvist calls her diet "Low Carb High Fat".

My point is that an individual does not know what the state of their kidneys etc is to begin with.

An extreme diet could be dangerous without such knowledge.

Of course there is much anecdotal information about how people manage very well etc etc - but it is taking a gamble.

I really fail to see why expert medical opinion is so castegated on these threads.

Romola said:

My point is that an individual does not know what the state of their kidneys etc is to begin with.

An extreme diet could be dangerous without such knowledge.

Of course there is much anecdotal information about how people manage very well etc etc - but it is taking a gamble.

I really fail to see why expert medical opinion is so castegated on these threads.

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All diabetics should get regular blood tests which include kidney function, any irregularities would be flagged up by the lab.

I think expert medical opinion is why many of us ended up seeking help on this forum.

Graham

Romola said:

I really fail to see why expert medical opinion is so castegated on these threads.

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I do not understand this comment as I was not aware that there were medical experts posting here as such. :? Do we now have medical experts on here and how do we recognise them so that we know it is a medical opinion that we are getting :?: