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Odd Dawn Effect observation

JayAmerican

Well-Known Member
Messages
80
Hello all, I haven't posted in a while, I had a period of time where I couldn't be on top of my diet as well as usual and stopped testing my blood all the time. I'm back on track now pretty strictly for the past 2 months (average A1C based on testing 6.5 American scale), just diet-based no drugs.

I have noticed something very odd that I tested to make sure it wasn't just random:

Usually in the mornings I will see a dawn effect of blood sugar being anywhere from 140-160 ml/dl. This is mostly expected, we all know why, and when I finally get myself to the 6.0 A1C range it will float down to more like 120-130. Totally understood.

The weird thing is:

If I skip breakfast and re-test myself before eating, it will still be in the same 140-160 range. But, if I had eaten a breakfast after the morning testing, as low carb as I can of course, usually some form of eggs, cheese, and vegetables, coffee, cream, or even minor carbs that are tolerable (meaning a breakfast of at most 5-10 carbs), if I test my blood 2 hours later it's 120-130 ml/dl sometimes better.

Why does it not go down from the morning levels when I *don't* eat but does go down after about 2 hours when I *do*?

I have a theory I have no way to prove: I believe that because T2D are not insulin-intolerant but rather insulin-resistant, we still only have insulin released after we eat but not from a low-grade glucose release in the AM by our liver to wake us up. I do believe that if we are actually fasting and also add in some cardio activity in the day while fasting it will eventually go down and stay down until eating (or until the next morning's dawn effect) but when we are not fasting then the body is not going to bother sending out insulin unless it knows we just ate.

Of course, although this causes blood sugar to initially spike, it will allow the insulin to do it's job BUT we have to be careful to not eat more calories than we need or else the body will store those and we'll just keep fueling glucose spikes from the liver in the morning that stay with us until, guess what, we eat.

So here is what I am thinking, and again this is just theory:

Outside of fasting, and especially during periods when there is not enough time to fit in cardio activities that day, a breakfast should always be eaten but it should be as close to zero carbs as possible and should be absolutely calorie-deficit meaning small portion. That will kick in an insulin response, will bring down the morning dawn effect, and give nothing for the liver to store as fat. The rest of the day our usual low-carb diets.

I may be wrong and perhaps it's has something to do with the coffee, or something to do with our body's regulation system where if it is used to a morning meal and then doesn't have one the glucose keeps getting released by the liver thinking we need it. I believe if we allow that, it helps in one way by freeing up stored glucose but it hurts in another is that no insulin gets released and it trains our body to be insulin-resistant vs insulin-accepting.

Thoughts from anyone else?
 
I believe it is the body thinking you are going to starve it, so the liver dumps glucose into your system. As a type 1 it happens to me also. Just a spoon of yoghurt can help deceive that pesky liver.
 
Yep, that is pretty normal. My body thinks it needs to deal with starvation until I eat something.
I don’t need to eat much. Just a handful of nuts is enough to stop Foot on The Floor.

I have also noticed it is less pronounced if I have exercised in the last day.
 
Hello all, I haven't posted in a while, I had a period of time where I couldn't be on top of my diet as well as usual and stopped testing my blood all the time. I'm back on track now pretty strictly for the past 2 months (average A1C based on testing 6.5 American scale), just diet-based no drugs.

I have noticed something very odd that I tested to make sure it wasn't just random:

Usually in the mornings I will see a dawn effect of blood sugar being anywhere from 140-160 ml/dl. This is mostly expected, we all know why, and when I finally get myself to the 6.0 A1C range it will float down to more like 120-130. Totally understood.

The weird thing is:

If I skip breakfast and re-test myself before eating, it will still be in the same 140-160 range. But, if I had eaten a breakfast after the morning testing, as low carb as I can of course, usually some form of eggs, cheese, and vegetables, coffee, cream, or even minor carbs that are tolerable (meaning a breakfast of at most 5-10 carbs), if I test my blood 2 hours later it's 120-130 ml/dl sometimes better.

Why does it not go down from the morning levels when I *don't* eat but does go down after about 2 hours when I *do*?

I have a theory I have no way to prove: I believe that because T2D are not insulin-intolerant but rather insulin-resistant, we still only have insulin released after we eat but not from a low-grade glucose release in the AM by our liver to wake us up. I do believe that if we are actually fasting and also add in some cardio activity in the day while fasting it will eventually go down and stay down until eating (or until the next morning's dawn effect) but when we are not fasting then the body is not going to bother sending out insulin unless it knows we just ate.

Of course, although this causes blood sugar to initially spike, it will allow the insulin to do it's job BUT we have to be careful to not eat more calories than we need or else the body will store those and we'll just keep fueling glucose spikes from the liver in the morning that stay with us until, guess what, we eat.

So here is what I am thinking, and again this is just theory:

Outside of fasting, and especially during periods when there is not enough time to fit in cardio activities that day, a breakfast should always be eaten but it should be as close to zero carbs as possible and should be absolutely calorie-deficit meaning small portion. That will kick in an insulin response, will bring down the morning dawn effect, and give nothing for the liver to store as fat. The rest of the day our usual low-carb diets.

I may be wrong and perhaps it's has something to do with the coffee, or something to do with our body's regulation system where if it is used to a morning meal and then doesn't have one the glucose keeps getting released by the liver thinking we need it. I believe if we allow that, it helps in one way by freeing up stored glucose but it hurts in another is that no insulin gets released and it trains our body to be insulin-resistant vs insulin-accepting.

Thoughts from anyone else?

Hi,

Does this also correlate with not eating prior to going to work & possibly breakfast on a day off?
 
Hi,

Does this also correlate with not eating prior to going to work & possibly breakfast on a day off?

No doesn't make a difference. The body is definitely behaving differently by dumping a low grade amount of glucose until I eat. The low grade glucose is not triggering an insulin response but the insulin does come when I eat. I think I will try what another reply suggested, that if I know I'm skipping a meal to at least eat something tiny with super-low carbs.
 
In the longer term it’s still better not to eat if you’re not hungry. Yes eating can blunt dawn phenomenon but if the endgame is to virtually delete measurable DP altogether then extended fasting is still the optimal approach. Only eat when hungry, don’t eat glucose, continue to burn off the excess energy that’s already in your body, and you will see better results long term as opposed to obsessing over blood glucose moment to moment. Well, that is what worked for me anyway, and I had catastrophic insulin resistance and dawn phenomenon so pervasive that I used to have to count every gram of protein I ate, never mind carbs.

Just my experience and something for others to consider if they so wish. Everyone is free to disagree or ignore.
 
In the longer term it’s still better not to eat if you’re not hungry. Yes eating can blunt dawn phenomenon but if the endgame is to virtually delete measurable DP altogether then extended fasting is still the optimal approach. Only eat when hungry, don’t eat glucose, continue to burn off the excess energy that’s already in your body, and you will see better results long term as opposed to obsessing over blood glucose moment to moment. Well, that is what worked for me anyway, and I had catastrophic insulin resistance and dawn phenomenon so pervasive that I used to have to count every gram of protein I ate, never mind carbs.

Just my experience and something for others to consider if they so wish. Everyone is free to disagree or ignore.

I agree with this, though I usually am hungry and the reasons for sometimes skipping breakfast or catching it later is I get dragged into something unexpected for work. It's a little irrational, but I feel like I got to this point of T2D because of work and not balancing time to learn how to eat healthy until it became a real problem. I am sure most of it is due to genetic predisposition but it certainly probably did not help to have the type of job at the type of place I work that strips me of proper self-care time. I've worked to correct this but on occasion I still have those "put everything down for work" moments and at this point I'm sick of it. Figuratively and literally.
 
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