Protein Synthesis

[GlazedDoughnuts]

Hi All,

I've been doing a bit of research into Insulin & protein synthesis, most of which I've read suggests Insulin supports protein synthesis.

Great, so does our basal Insulin cover this alone or do we need carbs with every meal (in order to use fast acting Insulin/trigger a natural response for non-diabetics) in order to synthesize protein?

Sorry if the question is a bit vague, but what I'm trying to get at is could one who is a diabetic and on a low carb/ketogenic diet synthesize protein to retain muscle mass/build new muscle mass without the use of fast acting Insulin?

Cheers.

 

[AMBrennan]

Great, so does our basal Insulin cover this alone or do we need carbs with every meal (in order to use fast acting Insulin/trigger a natural response for non-diabetics) in order to synthesize protein

You are under the misconception that insulin release correlates with GI/carbs; it does not - e.g. having carb-free whey protein with a slice of bread will double your insulin release. That is to say, a healthy person does not necessarily have to eat a lot of carbs for a large insulin response.

Nilsson M et al: Glycemia and insulinemia in healthy subjects after lactose-equivalent meals of milk and other food proteins: the role of plasma amino acids and I cretins. American Journal of Clincial Nutrition 2004
Opera EC et al: Characterization of the insulinotropic potency of polyunsaturated fatty acids. Endocrinology 1992.

I would imagine that taking more insulin might result in greater gains based on all the "insulin doping" stories floating around the broscience boards.

 

[GlazedDoughnuts]

Great, so does our basal Insulin cover this alone or do we need carbs with every meal (in order to use fast acting Insulin/trigger a natural response for non-diabetics) in order to synthesize protein

You are under the misconception that insulin release correlates with GI/carbs; it does not - e.g. having carb-free whey protein with a slice of bread will double your insulin release. That is to say, a healthy person does not necessarily have to eat a lot of carbs for a large insulin response.

Nilsson M et al: Glycemia and insulinemia in healthy subjects after lactose-equivalent meals of milk and other food proteins: the role of plasma amino acids and I cretins. American Journal of Clincial Nutrition 2004
Opera EC et al: Characterization of the insulinotropic potency of polyunsaturated fatty acids. Endocrinology 1992.

I would imagine that taking more insulin might result in greater gains based on all the "insulin doping" stories floating around the broscience boards.

Thanks, I was hoping you'd pop along

Long story short I've adopted a low carb diet temporarily to shed off some excess body fat with minimal muscle loss, I've chosen low carb as I find it easy to reach my calorific requirement.

I'm finding I need no fast acting Insulin at all as my blood sugars are staying around 4-6 daily, I'm not expecting any gains in muscle mass, I'm using 28 units of Levemir a day.

Is Insulin needed with high protein meals or will I be fine without?

 

[AMBrennan]

That depends - plenty of people here say that they need to inject fast acting insulin for protein meals whilst other do not. There's not much I can recommend than to keep testing and to be prepared to take QA insulin for the protein.

 

[phoenix]

This is a bit old but I suspect still valid
Protein Controversies in Diabetes
http://journal.diabetes.org/diabetesspe ... /pg132.htm
Relevant bits are
Does 50–60% of protein become glucose and enter the bloodstream in 3–4 hours?
and the summary which for T1 says

In people with type 1 diabetes, the effect of protein on glycemia will be dependent on the state of insulinization and the degree of glycemic control. Protein requires insulin for metabolism, as do carbohydrate and fat, but has minimal effects on blood glucose levels. In well-controlled diabetes, large amounts of protein have the potential to contribute to glucose production, minimally increase blood glucose levels, and require additional small amounts of insulin. If protein is decreased, insulin doses m[ ay also need to be decreased. There is limited evidence to suggest that protein contributes to a sustained elevation of blood glucose levels, slows absorption of carbohydrate, or is helpful for the treatment of hypoglycemia

.

I certainly need to use some insulin for low/no carb meals. Since all my meals have some protein I suspect that this is taken into account of in my normal 'carb' ratios.
In non diabetics I there is a lot of controversy about the amount of lean tissue loss in diets of varying compositions (so with our need to inject insulin I should think that no-one really knows)

 

[noblehead]

You may find the following interesting GD:

http://www.diabetes-support.org.uk/info/?page_id=438

 

[GlazedDoughnuts]

Interesting stuff from both of you, glad you both posted, much appreciated.

It's all a bit strange, a couple of years back before I had diabetic symptons (well they certainly were not as pronounced) I done a low carb/near ketogenic diet and lost almost a stone and a fair bit of stomach fat pretty quickly (8 weeks).

This time round, 5 weeks in and I've got no energy, need a lot more sleep, body weight hasn't changed much, slightly increase in strength and body composition remains about the same!

In conclusion I'm ditching the low carb diet, going back to a regular diet with a calorific deficit :thumbup:

Edit: Noble - cheers.

 

[Giverny]

I've been following a ketogenic diet for a while now. I've lost over a stone and once I had gotten past the initial phase of feeling lethargic I felt fine. I believe for the first few days of the diet it's just water weight that's lost which is why your loss will eventually plateau (as mine did). I'm now at roughly 135lbs and haven't really lost a significant amount of weight in weeks!