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Reverse glucose intolerance?

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mercutio

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Hi,
I read so many studies and articles, but I'm really confused how to eat healthy, so that I can reverse glucose intolerance. I lost a lot of weight over the past year and I'm going regularly to the gym. My questions are all diet related.
Currently there are 2 theories out there:
1.) The body has too much glucose in the blood stream. Since carbs trigger the insulin level the most and highest, I have to keep carbs away as much as possible. Eating more protein & good fats instead.
2.) Problem are not carbs. It's fat in muscle cells, which are blocking insulin hormones. To solve that problem, I have to eat complex carbs and proteins, but minimize fat (especially saturated fat) as much as possible.

What do you think? Theory 1? Theory 2? A combination of both of them?
 
That is a million dollar question.
I subscribe currently to 1 - because if I eat low or no carbs I see little spikes and my BG is way down on my diagnosis.

But I believe 2 may be the right long term answer - and so at this stage I am losing weight as well.

The problem is - what do you do if it is 2 to keep you BG down without eating fat your energy levels may plummet.
 
Fleegle said:
That is a million dollar question.
I subscribe currently to 1 - because if I eat low or no carbs I see little spikes and my BG is way down on my diagnosis.

But I believe 2 may be the right long term answer - and so at this stage I am losing weight as well.

The problem is - what do you do if it is 2 to keep you BG down without eating fat your energy levels may plummet.
Click to expand...
I think the excess fats in the cells are caused by to much veg oil, not saturated fats.
 
mercutio said:
Hi,
I read so many studies and articles, but I'm really confused how to eat healthy, so that I can reverse glucose intolerance. I lost a lot of weight over the past year and I'm going regularly to the gym. My questions are all diet related.
Currently there are 2 theories out there:
1.) The body has too much glucose in the blood stream. Since carbs trigger the insulin level the most and highest, I have to keep carbs away as much as possible. Eating more protein & good fats instead.
2.) Problem are not carbs. It's fat in muscle cells, which are blocking insulin hormones. To solve that problem, I have to eat complex carbs and proteins, but minimize fat (especially saturated fat) as much as possible.

What do you think? Theory 1? Theory 2? A combination of both of them?
Click to expand...

Basically when we are T2D, we have a condition of amplified insulin response to carbs...and actually proteins too. And having too much circulating insulin suppresses fats metobolism and increase fats storage. The result is that there is too much glucose in the entire system, not just the blood stream. All glucose storage mechanism in the body system are overloaded and overflowing. Hence it spills over to the blood stream like radioactive waste water that cannot be contained. Fats in the cells is just another form of glucose/energy.

Also the body is prioritize to process glucose before fats. Perhaps because it is more toxic if elevated? But it cannot process both efficiently at the same time. Fats can only be processed more efficiently when glucose/insulin levels drops to a certain level...eg < 5 mmol. So if the body is busy working to clear glucose, fats continues to build up...
 
kokhongw said:
Basically when we are T2D, we have a condition of amplified insulin response to carbs...and actually proteins too. And having too much circulating insulin suppresses fats metobolism and increase fats storage. The result is that there is too much glucose in the entire system, not just the blood stream. All glucose storage mechanism in the body system are overloaded and overflowing. Hence it spills over to the blood stream like radioactive waste water that cannot be contained. Fats in the cells is just another form of glucose/energy.

Also the body is prioritize to process glucose before fats. Perhaps because it is more toxic if elevated? But it cannot process both efficiently at the same time. Fats can only be processed more efficiently when glucose/insulin levels drops to a certain level...eg < 5 mmol. So if the body is busy working to clear glucose, fats continues to build up...
Click to expand...

Interesting - I had not read that before about fat and 5mmol. My BG is rarely below 5mmol and I am losing weight quite rapidly and certainly not putting weight on at all. I wonder how it is processing fat - which is it because I measure to see if I am in Ketosis - even when my BG is 6.

I find all of this fascinating.
 
Fleegle said:
Interesting - I had not read that before about fat and 5mmol. My BG is rarely below 5mmol and I am losing weight quite rapidly and certainly not putting weight on at all. I wonder how it is processing fat - which is it because I measure to see if I am in Ketosis - even when my BG is 6.

I find all of this fascinating.
Click to expand...

I pluck the number of < 5 mmol from the following blog post on 5 day water fasting...where we see a very sharp rise in ketones level when glucose level is maintain below the 5mmol(90mg/dL) range...that would be the sign of accelerated fats metabolism...at higher glucose levels, it doesn't mean that you are not burning fats, just that it is not at the rate needed to replace glucose as a primary fuel/energy source.

https://thequantifiedbody.net/5-day-water-fast-results/
fast-glucose-ketones.png
 
kokhongw said:
And this is a 10 day water fast that he did about 1 yr on...
Click to expand...

I am not questioning you and apologise if it came across in that way. I can see how successful you have been and frankly would like to get there myself. But I would say we are all different and when I first got my BG down my ketones went through the roof when my BG was between 6&7. At one point I was worried but my BG fell and I still had high ketones. And the fat has fallen off me to the stage where my GP has asked me not to lose any more at that rate and I am having to eat more fat and a few more carbs to slow the loss down which is now stabilising. And I am not a T1 - a few carbs causes a small spike which clears itself so there is some insulin and it works slowly.

We can see how different people respond - some people go down to 30G carbs and within six weeks have normal BGs where as I have not been so successful even though some days I have less than 10 easily.

That was my point.
 
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mercutio said:
Hi,
I read so many studies and articles, but I'm really confused how to eat healthy, so that I can reverse glucose intolerance. I lost a lot of weight over the past year and I'm going regularly to the gym. My questions are all diet related.
Currently there are 2 theories out there:
1.) The body has too much glucose in the blood stream. Since carbs trigger the insulin level the most and highest, I have to keep carbs away as much as possible. Eating more protein & good fats instead.
2.) Problem are not carbs. It's fat in muscle cells, which are blocking insulin hormones. To solve that problem, I have to eat complex carbs and proteins, but minimize fat (especially saturated fat) as much as possible.

What do you think? Theory 1? Theory 2? A combination of both of them?
Click to expand...
I'm doing low carb, low fat. Its working for me. I'm ill at mo but I think due to lack of multivitamins and had low vit d. On course for improvement. More a inflammatory virus than an infection gp thinks.
 
Fleegle said:
I am not questioning you and apologise if it came across in that way.
Click to expand...

No worries. I didn't take it that way at all. The forum is for discussion and each of us have different experiences which shapes our viewpoints. It is thru the questionings and discussions that we form a clearer picture and help to identify what may have cause these difference...it helps us all to think deeper into the issues.
 
ickihun said:
@kokhongw I lose more weight when my bgs are under 5mmol/l. No matter how much insulin I inject!!!
Click to expand...

Your comments worries me. I would be very cautious as large amount of insulin WILL cause hypoglycemia. What the fasting charts shows is that in the absence of insulin, low blood glucose is quickly being compensated with rising ketones. This provides a balance level of fuel/energy primarily for the brain.

But if you have large amount of circulating insulin, then the ketones production might fail to ramp up fast enough to the level needed while glucose levels continue plunging. That can be FATAL. That is the reason why the medical community recommends maintaining a higher glucose level while on medication and insulin to allow for a safe margin of error...from triggering catastrophic hypo episodes.
 
Fleegle said:
But I would say we are all different and when I first got my BG down my ketones went through the roof when my BG was between 6&7. At one point I was worried but my BG fell and I still had high ketones.
Click to expand...

How high did your ketones go?

I have thought of our body as a hybrid engine that is capable of using either glucose or ketones. But not one that can efficiently parallel process both. :)
 
Our body can use both glucose and ketenes at the same time, but often the ketenes are not detectable while running in “mixed mode”.

I think there is 3 brands of insulin levels that each person has.

Low Insulin (only get this with low BG) -> Body will run on ketenes
Mid Insulin -> Liver will convert fat into glucose
High Insulin -> glucose is converted into fat

We need to keep out of the “High Insulin” band as much as possible to lose weight, but don’t need to go into the “Low Insulin” band.

When I did a one day fast and walk 20 miles, my BG set at its now normal level of 5.5 for the complete time (only check with test strips). When I did a 30 minutes power walk/run after a meal my BG got down to 4.5. The walk on the fasting day must have used up most of the stored glucose in my Liver, so I must have been running at least in part on fat, yet my body could keep the BG at 5.5.
 
kokhongw said:
Your comments worries me. I would be very cautious as large amount of insulin WILL cause hypoglycemia. What the fasting charts shows is that in the absence of insulin, low blood glucose is quickly being compensated with rising ketones. This provides a balance level of fuel/energy primarily for the brain.

But if you have large amount of circulating insulin, then the ketones production might fail to ramp up fast enough to the level needed while glucose levels continue plunging. That can be FATAL. That is the reason why the medical community recommends maintaining a higher glucose level while on medication and insulin to allow for a safe margin of error...from triggering catastrophic hypo episodes.
Click to expand...
I won't do anything which isn't cleared by my diabetic team. Its an observation of my weight loss behaviour. The team are supporting my weight loss methods but I've weighed myself one day early and no loss this week due to illness and me missing some injections due to needing more sleep and off my food. In fact I may have added weight.
Strange don't you think?
Most people lose weight when off food and ill. Right?
 
Thank you guys. I have to say that I'm pretty overwhelmed by your responses. I don't measure my blood sugar levels and I don't know about metabolic processes on a level you do. Years ago I had blood work done and had a glucose tolerance test. My hba1c value was normal, but the doctor said I have insulin resistance. I tried losing weight so many times but failed. Last year I finally succeeded and lost 66 lbs (30 kg). I exercise 3-4 times a week. I'm still overweight (not obese anymore), but I'll keep trying to loose body fat.
The big question for me is still what kind of things to eat. I eat healthy in general, but I would say that my diet has a good amount of carbs. I mainly eat complex or natural carbs. I try to minimize oil as much as I can. I try to avoid saturated fat as much as I can. I try to reduce dairy products as much as I can. I don't know if thats good against insulin resistance or not?
 
mercutio said:
The big question for me is still what kind of things to eat. I eat healthy in general, but I would say that my diet has a good amount of carbs. I mainly eat complex or natural carbs. I try to minimize oil as much as I can. I try to avoid saturated fat as much as I can. I try to reduce dairy products as much as I can. I don't know if thats good against insulin resistance or not?
Click to expand...

That was the route that my father followed for over 30 years after his T2D diagnosis and subsequent 2 heart-bypasses/7 stenting/2 vascular/2 toe amputation. There was the usual fat avoidance, suspicion, family squabbles over his "non-compliance". That's experience led me to believe that the guidelines against saturated fats and fasting is simply wrong. The idea that we should have 3 meals and 2 snacks a day to maintain stable glucose. That carbs is essential etc...

Over the past 2 years I have walked less than 5000 steps daily. Probably less than 1000 steps. I eat loads of saturated fats and diary. Eggs, butter, cheese, nuts, avocado, pork belly (roasted, braised, soup), steaks etc my glucose has been well within normal range for the past 21 months from HbA1c of 11%. And even my cholesterol is only slightly elevated but still within the normal range.

So I have essentially concluded that fats and fasting are helpful where T2D is concerned.

But then again, it is my anecdotal experience, your body may react differently. :)
 
mercutio said:
Hi,
I read so many studies and articles, but I'm really confused how to eat healthy, so that I can reverse glucose intolerance. I lost a lot of weight over the past year and I'm going regularly to the gym. My questions are all diet related.
Currently there are 2 theories out there:
1.) The body has too much glucose in the blood stream. Since carbs trigger the insulin level the most and highest, I have to keep carbs away as much as possible. Eating more protein & good fats instead.
2.) Problem are not carbs. It's fat in muscle cells, which are blocking insulin hormones. To solve that problem, I have to eat complex carbs and proteins, but minimize fat (especially saturated fat) as much as possible.

What do you think? Theory 1? Theory 2? A combination of both of them?
Click to expand...


Oh Yes well This is hard to answer :

Going really low in carbs seems to control the level of blood glucose But I am not sure it will really help reverse insuline resistance to a non diabetic level.

Since I went higher fat I stopper loosing weight , But that might be because I didn't go low enough in carbs : like under 50 grams a day . I had a fine control going low calories and lower fat and lower carbs


I have choosed to have an approach where I will both eat lower fat moderate proteins and moderate levels of carbs (150 gram a day ) and High fibres foods mostly vegetables and I also try to lower insuline resistance by exercing really a lot and purposely do build more muscle mass
I have gained 3 kg of new muscle mass This last year since diagnose


It seems to have helped a lot in lowering my insuline resistance ; it seems I can actually now eat like : 300 grams of carbs in a day without my blood sugar spiking over 7 mmol and most times my number is more like 5.4 mmol 1 hour after eating a lot of carbs in 1 meal like more than 100 grams BUT that said I am still on metformin 2x850mg and if I did eat that much every day I Think I'll destroy my much lowered insuline resistance

I now eat around 200 grams of carbs Daily But most the days where I exercise really a lot like burning around 2000 calories at fitness every day I go there 2-3 times a week

Those 200 grams of carbs are much more than diabetics can usually eat in a day while still having quite normal levels of blood glucose

My liver is still overactive in producing blood glucose so my numbers are never lower than 4.9 mmol even when not eating a lot of carbs
By the way my HbA1c was 34 last 2 month ago

So well my advice and belief is do build some more muscle mass and exercise a lot 3 times a week or 1 hour everyday

I Think there is no exact knowledge of why insuline reSistance start raising is it excess eating of carbs ?
Is it a combination of eating High fat and High carbs ?
Is it because one have muscles that are hardly used and have decayed ?

Is it invironmental pollution ?

Is it the many hours of sitting on ones behind ? That has become more frequent in modern culture ?
 
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