Reversing Diabetes Online Summit

I would like to add to this discussion with an observation I have found.

Back in the beginning of February it used to take me 20 to 30 minutes of exercise on my bike to drive my blood glucose levels from about 9 down to 5. I can now do that in under 5 mins. I am pretty sure I am less insulin resistant now than I used to be unless or I am just producing far more insulin (pretty hard to tell). I also seem to never go above 8.5 ish no matter what I put in my mouth (assuming I am used to that amount) and it comes down to 6 in less than an hour after peaking.

I have tested this alongside my wife when we ate the same stuff and even though she only peaked up to 8 and not 8.5 we tracked each others levels all the way down to 6.

Spiker said:

I would quite like to see the original post by @kyrani99 that was apparently deleted. She is arguing reasonably and moderately even if some of her claims are pretty extreme. I thought mo's response was good - posters should report their own experience but probably not make 'one size fits all' sweeping claims of what does work or what doesn't work 'for everybody/anybody'.

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Of course getting out of a toxic relationship is preferable but not always possible for everyone. The abusers are often next of kin and even within a family, they may be work associates, fellow employees and so on. It is possible for a person to be unable to leave for many different reasons. They have though the right to defend themselves from emotional abuse.

kyrani99 said:

Of course getting out of a toxic relationship is preferable but not always possible for everyone. The abusers are often next of kin and even within a family, they may be work associates, fellow employees and so on. It is possible for a person to be unable to leave for many different reasons. They have though the right to defend themselves from emotional abuse.

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I am hoping I will be able to express myself clearly in this reply. I fully appreciate what you are saying about toxic relationships. I have had very many in the past. The absolute worst ones were when I was grieving the loss of both my parents who died 19 days apart. One particular couple told me I should 'get over it' after a couple of weeks. They had previously been very 'kind' and I had become dependent on them. I gave them too much control over me because I was in a bad place. This only made things worse for me. Eventually a couple of years later I saw sense and walked away. It took longer to forgive them, and even longer to realise that the act of forgiveness was beneficial only to me, not them. I am no longer bitter with the hurt and am much more careful who I trust. Now I have only 3 close friends and am aware that certain 'triggers' could cause toxicity in at least two of these relationships, so I have found defences to any of these 'trigger' situations.

I found your original post interesting, though I didn't have time to read and digest it properly. Whilst reading it, I had the thought that if I was a moderator for this forum, I would probably delete it. So I took the liberty of printing it out while it was still there, so that I could read it when I have enough 'headspace' to explore it fully. - still not there yet! I hope you don't mind. If you do, I will shred it.

Although I found it interesting, I did not think that this forum was the right place for it. It can be very upsetting to have diabetes and all of the complications that can arise because of it. Ideally, yes, holistic healing is superior to simply treating symptoms. However, when a person is bogged down by feeling ill, by conflicting advice, by having to change lifelong habits etc., telling that person to examine their lives in such a way as this can cause even more stress. You need to be in a 'good place' to take this type of teaching on board, otherwise you can receive it as blame that you are ill and have done something to cause it.

I wish you well

Hi
I was using Victoza and metformin two years ago and worked very hard with sensible eating and exercise to reduce my weight and blood sugars. The results were amazing and it was stated that I had 'beat' Type 2 diabetes (my consultant's words), Victoza was removed and I carried on taking metformin as it was a 'sensible' thing to do. However, two years later, my bloods are extremely high and I am now back on Victoza with metformin at the maximum dose and also gliclizide. Nothing changed except for me believing that I had been 'cured' and so my tight control on food loosened and I stopped testing, resulting in weight gain, although not drastic, enough to raise my sugars again - I would now say that I am in a worse position medically than I was two years ago. My opinion from personal experience is that diabetes cannot be CURED, just well managed so PLEASE do not become complacent if you bring your readings down, as diabetes is still in the background. Good for those who have tightl control - long may it continue for you. I am now working hard again to get in a better place but it has been a lesson learnt the hard way.

wish you could get it reverse for good.

mandydowns said:

Hi
I was using Victoza and metformin two years ago and worked very hard with sensible eating and exercise to reduce my weight and blood sugars. The results were amazing and it was stated that I had 'beat' Type 2 diabetes (my consultant's words), Victoza was removed and I carried on taking metformin as it was a 'sensible' thing to do. However, two years later, my bloods are extremely high and I am now back on Victoza with metformin at the maximum dose and also gliclizide. Nothing changed except for me believing that I had been 'cured' and so my tight control on food loosened and I stopped testing, resulting in weight gain, although not drastic, enough to raise my sugars again - I would now say that I am in a worse position medically than I was two years ago. My opinion from personal experience is that diabetes cannot be CURED, just well managed so PLEASE do not become complacent if you bring your readings down, as diabetes is still in the background. Good for those who have tightl control - long may it continue for you. I am now working hard again to get in a better place but it has been a lesson learnt the hard way.

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Hi.
Sorry to hear you have had a hard time.
If you read the earlier posts you would see that reversal is possible and the key to reversing your diabetes is losing weight and keeping it off which normalises your insulin resistance and insulin secretion. You said it all when you stated "nothing changed...but weight gain" I don't know if you did reverse your diabetes as you may well have had good control. There is a difference.The only way for you to know is to see how you react to carbs or a OGTT. This will show you in the normal range if you have achieved reversal but in the diabetic range if you have good control.
Also make no mistake if you go back to overeating and put on enough weight it will come right back, that is correct ,you have a probable genetic pre-disposition to this and you cannot, at this time, be cured of that. It takes a major lifestyle change to avoid putting on weight but if you weight yourself once a week and see your weight going up then go back on a diet. You may call that management ,if you wish, but if you have normalised your blood glucose system and never allow your weight to go back up again then some may call that a cure, they would if you had any other symptomless disease or metabolic abnormality would they not?

Please look here at this link for more info and advice and take control back, you did amazingly to start with and can do so again with good advice:
http://www.ncl.ac.uk/magres/research/diabetes/reversal.htm
Reversing Type 2 Diabetes
Our work has shown that type 2 diabetes is not inevitably progressive and life-long. We have demonstrated that in people who have had type 2 diabetes for 4 years or less, major weight loss returns insulin secretion to normal.

It has been possible to work out the basic mechanisms which lead to type 2 diabetes. Too much fat within liver and pancreas prevents normal insulin action and prevents normal insulin secretion. Both defects are reversible by substantial weight loss.

kyrani99 said:

Of course getting out of a toxic relationship is preferable but not always possible for everyone. The abusers are often next of kin and even within a family, they may be work associates, fellow employees and so on. It is possible for a person to be unable to leave for many different reasons. They have though the right to defend themselves from emotional abuse.

Click to expand...

Enduring a toxic relationship and trying to find adaptations to survive it is the definition of codependency. Particularly if you are claiming that exposure to toxic relationships has physical health consequences, which seems plausible, you should not be advising any kind of accommodation with a toxic relationship. If they have correctly been evaluated as toxic relationships (some people see toxic relationships everywhere but are just projecting their own poor relationship skills) then correct boundary skills need to be applied. That means clearly stating what behaviours are unacceptable, and ending the relationship if those behaviours don't cease. There is no relationship that can't be ended if necessary, apart from parent to dependent non-adult child.

I didn't see your original post so I don't know what your proposed "emotional defence" mechanism is. But the search for a mechanism to remain in and endure a toxic relationship, is a codependent response.

Sent from the Diabetes Forum App

zand said:

I am hoping I will be able to express myself clearly in this reply. I fully appreciate what you are saying about toxic relationships. I have had very many in the past. The absolute worst ones were when I was grieving the loss of both my parents who died 19 days apart. One particular couple told me I should 'get over it' after a couple of weeks. They had previously been very 'kind' and I had become dependent on them. I gave them too much control over me because I was in a bad place. This only made things worse for me. Eventually a couple of years later I saw sense and walked away. It took longer to forgive them, and even longer to realise that the act of forgiveness was beneficial only to me, not them. I am no longer bitter with the hurt and am much more careful who I trust. Now I have only 3 close friends and am aware that certain 'triggers' could cause toxicity in at least two of these relationships, so I have found defences to any of these 'trigger' situations.

I found your original post interesting, though I didn't have time to read and digest it properly. Whilst reading it, I had the thought that if I was a moderator for this forum, I would probably delete it. So I took the liberty of printing it out while it was still there, so that I could read it when I have enough 'headspace' to explore it fully. - still not there yet! I hope you don't mind. If you do, I will shred it.

Although I found it interesting, I did not think that this forum was the right place for it. It can be very upsetting to have diabetes and all of the complications that can arise because of it. Ideally, yes, holistic healing is superior to simply treating symptoms. However, when a person is bogged down by feeling ill, by conflicting advice, by having to change lifelong habits etc., telling that person to examine their lives in such a way as this can cause even more stress. You need to be in a 'good place' to take this type of teaching on board, otherwise you can receive it as blame that you are ill and have done something to cause it.

I wish you well

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“the act of forgiveness was beneficial only to me, not them. I am no longer bitter with the hurt….”
What it sounds like is that you have been able to let go of the issue owing to distance and time passed. To forgive is to let some one off with some debt created when they did a crime/ offence, but that is not all of the matter. To forgive you need to get an assurance that the other party is not going to re-offend because they have had a change of heart. And that change of heart can only come about because they have faced what they have done and acknowledge the injustice they have committed and regret having done it. Why is this important? Because when you forgive someone in the fuller sense you bring them onto a common ground with yourself. This is not wise to do if the other party is hateful.
“…… am much more careful who I trust. Now I have only 3 close friends and am aware that certain 'triggers' could cause toxicity in at least two of these relationships, so I have found defences to any of these 'trigger' situations.”
If you are going to have a relationship which is rewarding, you must invest in the relationship and trust is a part of that investment. If you recognize “triggers” then you recognize toxic people and toxic relationship. There is no such thing as triggers that could cause toxicity. People who are toxic are two faced and may appear as nice and friendly like the couple you mentioned but underneath the façade they are looking to harm because that gives them pleasure. You are fooling yourself to think that you can have a defence to the trigger situations. You are setting your self up to be injured. There are situations where relating to others is unavoidable, eg work but these are not friendships. Where will these people be if you need support?

Spiker said:

Enduring a toxic relationship and trying to find adaptations to survive it is the definition of codependency. Particularly if you are claiming that exposure to toxic relationships has physical health consequences, which seems plausible, you should not be advising any kind of accommodation with a toxic relationship. If they have correctly been evaluated as toxic relationships (some people see toxic relationships everywhere but are just projecting their own poor relationship skills) then correct boundary skills need to be applied. That means clearly stating what behaviours are unacceptable, and ending the relationship if those behaviours don't cease. There is no relationship that can't be ended if necessary, apart from parent to dependent non-adult child.

I didn't see your original post so I don't know what your proposed "emotional defence" mechanism is. But the search for a mechanism to remain in and endure a toxic relationship, is a codependent response.

Sent from the Diabetes Forum App

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I disagree with you. Certainly there are co-dependent relationship. In such cases either one or both parties are toxic. However the non-toxic party may not recognize the problem because the toxic party is two-faced.

”There is no relationship that can't be ended if necessary, apart from parent to dependent non-adult child. “
There are plenty of relationships that are toxic and the non-toxic party trapped. There are plenty of reasons for being unable to leave or unable to leave in the short term. For instance, co-workers that are bullies, bosses that are bullies. Yes you get another job but that can’t happen overnight. A person might take a year to find another suitable job. You might have a family to support or dependents of some sort and you can’t just walk out of a job. Then there is the case of a spouse’s parents being toxic or at least unfriendly. What do you do? Get a divorce and leave someone that you love or at least get along with, split up your family and disadvantage your children? No. You have to deal with the in-laws somehow. There are many and various relationships and the solutions are complex in some cases. You can’t expect someone to just leave.
“then correct boundary skills need to be applied. ………..clearly stating what behaviours are unacceptable”
This is naïve. The person who is hateful means to be hateful and if they are in a position which they can exploit they will. You can’t reason with these people. If you have to put up with them for some time then you have to find some way to defend yourself. Certainly you don’t maintain relationships such as friendships with toxic people. Those you can leave and there is nothing holding you back from doing that.
“(some people see toxic relationships everywhere but are just projecting their own poor relationship skills)
In the Western world the person victimized is always blamed and looked down on and if they complain then they are just projecting. It is true of a woman being bashed as much as a child or someone elderly being abused. People look down on the victim, they see the person victimized as being at fault. This is the Western disease and the reason why the level of violence in society, especially at the domestic level, schools and the workplace gets worse every year; And all of them supposedly “just projecting” if they speak up. We disintegrate as a society if this continues.

kyrani99 said:

“the act of forgiveness was beneficial only to me, not them. I am no longer bitter with the hurt….”
What it sounds like is that you have been able to let go of the issue owing to distance and time passed. To forgive is to let some one off with some debt created when they did a crime/ offence, but that is not all of the matter. To forgive you need to get an assurance that the other party is not going to re-offend because they have had a change of heart. And that change of heart can only come about because they have faced what they have done and acknowledge the injustice they have committed and regret having done it. Why is this important? Because when you forgive someone in the fuller sense you bring them onto a common ground with yourself. This is not wise to do if the other party is hateful.
“…… am much more careful who I trust. Now I have only 3 close friends and am aware that certain 'triggers' could cause toxicity in at least two of these relationships, so I have found defences to any of these 'trigger' situations.”
If you are going to have a relationship which is rewarding, you must invest in the relationship and trust is a part of that investment. If you recognize “triggers” then you recognize toxic people and toxic relationship. There is no such thing as triggers that could cause toxicity. People who are toxic are two faced and may appear as nice and friendly like the couple you mentioned but underneath the façade they are looking to harm because that gives them pleasure. You are fooling yourself to think that you can have a defence to the trigger situations. You are setting your self up to be injured. There are situations where relating to others is unavoidable, eg work but these are not friendships. Where will these people be if you need support?

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What zand recognises, and you don't seem to recognise, is that the world is not divided into saints and demons, where by an odd coincidence 'we' are always the saints and 'they' are always the demons.

In fact all bad relationships are caused to some extent by both parties, both parties have a responsibility, if only the responsibility to state and enforce good boundaries. Zand is right to recognise triggers that indicate a risk of unhealthy relationships with some people. It is emotionally immature to describe those people as being intrinsically toxic. It is the relationship which is toxic, and the relationship is the product of the characteristics of both people in it, not just one 'toxic' person.

The mythology of 'toxic people' is a defence mechanism, a splitting mechanism, for people who are unable to cope with their own responsibility for their own relationships. Zand's view on this is very healthy and mature. Kyrani, you come across as being hurt, angry, vengeful and inappropriately attached to the people who you feel have harmed you. Talk of justice is an attachment, clinging to the past, it doesn't help anyone heal or move on. What is vital is to let the other person go out of your mind and emotions, while accepting responsibility for your own part of the relationship problem. Your own responsibility is the only thing you should carry forward with you, so you can resolve it yourself. The other person's responsibility is their issue, you can't control it, you can't get "justice", you just need to let go. You also need to realise they are a person, just like you, liable to make mistakes, just trying to be happy.

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kyrani99 said:

“(some people see toxic relationships everywhere but are just projecting their own poor relationship skills)
In the Western world the person victimized is always blamed and looked down on and if they complain then they are just projecting. It is true of a woman being bashed as much as a child or someone elderly being abused. People look down on the victim, they see the person victimized as being at fault. This is the Western disease and the reason why the level of violence in society, especially at the domestic level, schools and the workplace gets worse every year; And all of them supposedly “just projecting” if they speak up. We disintegrate as a society if this continues.

Click to expand...

You are talking from ignorance here. Engagement with abuse victims necessarily involves working with them so they can understand their own role in perpetuating the bad relationship. This is necessary for their empowerment and to prevent the repetition of the bad relationship that otherwise occurs. This is not blaming the victim. This is helping them to be stronger. These are techniques that were pioneered in the Western world and are normal here, but absent in the non Western world, where blaming and enforced silence are still the norm. So you have that exactly wrong.

I am sorry that you are obviously in a lot of pain, but you are bringing it to the wrong place on this forum. You are acting out. You are still in a very reactive, defensive, black and white, splitting phase of dealing with your personal issues. You need to learn a lot more about how to operate healthy boundaries and a lot more about the two-sided nature of responsibility in relationships, including your own responsibility. Blaming and labelling others is a defence mechanism, it's not healthy.


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Spiker said:

I would quite like to see the original post by @kyrani99 that was apparently deleted. She is arguing reasonably and moderately even if some of her claims are pretty extreme. I thought mo's response was good - posters should report their own experience but probably not make 'one size fits all' sweeping claims of what does work or what doesn't work 'for everybody/anybody'.

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I've now seen the original posts and I agree it was appropriate to delete them. They demonstrate that Kyrani is a troubled individual. I'm not going to continue any discussions with her and have recommended that she gets help. :-(

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When the work can't be attacked, attack the messenger.
I think the posts I've made that haven't been deleted all speak for me. I have advised people in their best interests. I haven't attacked anyone. I have not spoken badly about anyone. I haven't called anyone troubled because I disagree with them. If posts are deleted then I don't think it is reasonable to comment on them when others can't make judgement for themselves.

Kyrani said, "I did say that anger is not always obvious. It is possible to experience an emotion and not realize what it is or worse still mistake it for something else."

I would like to remind you that I said I don't feel any irritation or anger. I have a very happy and pleasant life and I think it is an outrageous assumption on your part to suggest that anyone who has diabetes must have anger issues or damaging relationships and that if they don't accept your assumption then they must be deluded. It simply appears that you are projecting your own experiences onto others.

Karbstruck said:

Kyrani said, "I did say that anger is not always obvious. It is possible to experience an emotion and not realize what it is or worse still mistake it for something else."

I would like to remind you that I said I don't feel any irritation or anger. I have a very happy and pleasant life and I think it is an outrageous assumption on your part to suggest that anyone who has diabetes must have anger issues or damaging relationships and that if they don't accept your assumption then they must be deluded. It simply appears that you are projecting your own experiences onto others.

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I didn't say there had to be anger, I said that SOMETIMES anger can be subliminal. That doesn't mean it is so in your case. It may not be in every case but I have seen a large number of people with diabetes and all of them were stressed and many had anger problems. That does not mean they are to blame, far from it.

Yeah projecting is a favourite, i've heard it said many times. I don't agree with it. If you judge something you are giving an opinion. It's not as if the other person has to accept it. And it doesn't mean you are projecting anything either

I had answered you earlier on this matter and my post was deleted. Why? What was offensive about it?
And why bring it up now?

how i wish that by deleting a post could reverse my diabetes. people can believe all they wants but it does not matter unless one can proof that it works.

mine said:

how i wish that by deleting a post could reverse my diabetes. people can believe all they wants but it does not matter unless one can proof that it works.

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Proving that it works is a personal matter. You need to keep a diary OVER TIME, in which you record all your data, physical, mental, emotional and relational and then you are in a position to more objectively examine it and find any correlations as may exist. You are then in a position to assess your own experience.

This is an interesting article that addresses anger, diabetes and marital relationships AND it is by MEDICAL SCIENTISTS in the USA.

http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/hangryspouse.htm

They called hungry + angry = hangry
They ask do lower BGs cause anger (round the other way from what I said) and in the experiment the researchers gave the participants voodoo dolls representing their spouse and 51 pins to pick it depending on how angry they felt. Are they troubled too?

The research took three years to complete, involved 107 married couples and was funded by a grant from the National Science Foundation,.
Are these scientists troubled individuals too!

Indy51 said:

If you're interested in reading more, Jimmy Moore has a post about it on his blog today:

http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog/reversing-diabetes-world-summit-coming-may-5-2014/22336

To sign up: http://thediabetessummit.com/

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Getting back on topic...

I got an email from them today offering all the summit materials for $77. When I queried the 'free' summit it turns out that the summit is free to watch live, streaming, but if you don't want to watch it live you will have to pay this $77 (reduced from $97 and apparently a $XXXXXX value). You get a bunch of other stuff for the $77 in addition to recordings of all the summit talks. Hmm.....

In the meantime I will repeat trotskyite's excellent suggestion to look at Prof Roy Taylor's videos for the actual science of T2D reversal.